Date: 10-29-96 (22:38) Number: 424 of 456 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: PLZ@macbroker.com, PATRICE Subj: Re: CoMasonry Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: CompuServe Incorporated Message-ID: In article , rl3s@netcom.com (Zeus Paleologos) wrote: >G: Four of the five major GLs in France are deemed irregular by my GL. the >G: members of ALL of them are Masons, by definition (see above). >No, they are not. Your definition is not the authoritative one. >They are real people-- but they are not real Masons. It is >not their existence which is questioned-- it is their >Masonic legitimacy. And denying legitimacy would be both wise >and proper. >I do not believe you can prove that Masonry anywhere instructs >you to "treat non-Masons as Masons." In fact, I think you >will find that it specifically forbids such behavior. Zeus, It seems that there is here some confusion between regularity and recognition. As you may know, some GLs are regular a n d recognised (UGLoE), some are irregular and recognised (Grand Lodge of Norway), some are regular and not recognised (Grand Lodge of France) and some are irregular and not recognized (Grand Orient of France). Also the so called ancient landmarks vary from juridiction to juridiction. I think that a Mason is first made so in his heart, to this regard there are Masons and non Masons in each and every Lodge. Fraternally, Patrice Date: 10-29-96 (17:20) Number: 425 of 456 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: thehalls@elite.net, MIKE HALL Subj: Re: Freemasonry - The secret revealed at last Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Elite Networking - Merced, CA Message-ID: In article <5531me$d76@news2.cais.com>, rfire@cais.cais.com (Dr. Roger M. Firestone) wrote: > The reason why the use of pseudonyms on a group dedicated to Freemasonry > is of concern is that the tenets of Freemasonry are brotherly love, > relief, and truth. The posting of material, even the most sincere, > under an alias, is a violation of the third tenet. Nonsense! To compare the fine old established custom (maybe even 10 years old!) of using screen names on the Internet to some violation of the tenets of Freemasonry is really stretching a point a LONG LONG way! Screen names are a fun thing that has grown up, just as a while back the use of "handles" on CB radio was a fun thing to do! Identifying yourself as Dr Roger M. Firestone does not provide any more real information usuable to me than calling yourself rfire. I don't know if you are a Doctor or not, and I certainly am not going to accept any medical advice from you without more information. But I will listen to your opinions on this board and make my conclusions from them about what you know about Freemasonry. How would it make their postings any more legitimate if joken or plutonium or dsales used their real names?? The CONTENT of a posting is what legitimatizes it, not the name signed below it! From a guy who goes by the screen names of MercedMike and OlBulldog, and who just MIGHT be: Mike Hall MM Yosemite Lodge #99 Merced CA ======================================================== Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something. ======================================================== I'll look at yours if you'll look at mine!! Visit me at: http://www.elite.net/~thehalls ======================================================== Date: 10-30-96 (00:33) Number: 426 of 456 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jenny@hutch.com.au, JENNY Subj: Re: Women and Freemasons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Hutchison Telecoms (Aust) Ltd. Message-ID: <327615D5.1911@hutch.com.au> Very sorry - I'll try once more I am not a Mason. A friend is wishing to become a Mason & my G'father was a Mason. Neither have told me ANYTHING about it which is their right & duty. But, (in reference to the <> below)I had the impression Masonry saw a bigger picture in helping "make good men better". Surely their high values & beliefs are to help society around them - we have only to see their untiring charity work. Most posts & information on the Web talk of how special it is to be a Mason. They also say how it improves their own and others' lives. So share that wonderful experience & make "good women, better women". Surely working together we can achieve a better society. What good would it be if only men knew those special life secrets to working in harmony and peace if you constantly have a bunch of :) *rogue* women around?? - Just some food for thought. Wishing you well in your endeavours. Kind regards Jenny 8] <> > Freemasonry is a source and a celebration of masculine spiritual energy. > Women could not add to it nor benefit from it. Co-masonry and/or > women-only lodges are not necessarily bad things and, indeed, this may > be the wave of the future. However what will result, as laudable as it > may be, will no longer be masonry. To some that may seem to be a good > idea; to many others it will be the end of the best association of men > in human history. > > If you don't approve of us, then leave us alone. We do a tremendous > amount of good for ourselves and the world at large and, at the same > time, harm no one. We have prevented no one - black, white, male, > female, Christian, Jew, Moslem, Pagan, etc., etc., etc. - from realizing > his or her full potential as a human and a citizen. Date: 10-30-96 (18:40) Number: 433 of 456 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rwoodard@iway1.iw.net, RONALD WOODARD Subj: Re: Post degree examinations Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Personal Message-ID: <01bbc691$f9d89960$38949dcc@rwoodard.iw.net> In South Dakota a number of years ago, we decided it was essential that a new Mason gain a good understanding of the work through which they had just progressed and that this should be the purpose of the examination. For many, rote learning of the examination did not necessarily mean understanding of the subject matter. I know when my father helped me to learn my memorized examination he took time to explain meanings behind various terms and events in each degree. This information helped me to better understand what I had seen. It wasn't part of the rote memorization. South Dakota adopted an alternative examination option. It is actually a structured learning module that a candidate must complete and present to the Lodge before advancing to the next degree. A Mentor is assigned to assist the new Mason in completing this course of instruction. We have found it to be just as effective as the rote memorization and it is much less intimidating. The course of instruction is just an option and the Lodge may choose to use it or not. Our course of instruction was developed after examination of similar documents from other jurisdictions. If you are interested, I believe you could ask your Grand Secretary to write to our Grand Lodge Office and obtain copies and he could probably find out from which jurisdictions we obtained material to examine initially. Hope this of assistance. Ronald Woodard, PM Washington Lodge #111 AF&AM South Dakota KTinfo@gnn.com wrote in article <556csd$9t6@news-e2b.gnn.com>... > In New Jersey, we have a long examination of questions pertaining > to the degree undertaken, that candidates are required to learn. > This includes recital of the entire obligation from memory. Many > of the members now feel that this requirement is almost a deterrent > and of little value for the progression thru the degrees. There > seems at times, to be a rush to get the vandidate thru quickly - > before they lose interest(!??). I'm curious as to what other > states have regarding the same. Your opnion is obviously welcome, > but I'm curious as to the factual requirements across the country. > Please post publicly, so we can all learn. Thanks. > > Date: 10-30-96 (18:47) Number: 434 of 456 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jaymar@nyc.pipeline.com, JAY D MARKSHEID Subj: Re: Post degree examinations Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: The Pipeline Message-ID: <5587ri$gn5@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com> On Oct 29, 1996 21:00:21 in article , '' wrote: >In New Jersey, we have a long examination of questions >pertaining to the degree undertaken, that candidates are required >to learn. >This includes recital of the entire obligation from memory. Many >of the members now feel that this requirement is almost a >deterrent and of little value for the progression thru the degrees. >There seems at times, to be a rush to get the vandidate thru >quickly - before they lose interest(!??). I'm curious as to what >other states have regarding the same. Your opnion is obviously >welcome, >but I'm curious as to the factual requirements across >the country. >Please post publicly, so we can all learn. Thanks. -- Across the river in New York we do it the same way, a series of questions and answers, about 60, including the obligation, which must be recited from memory. Does it make it harder for a new Brother to go through the Degrees? Maybe. But it is easier to learn if you work with someone. That someone then becomes your mentor, and often a life-long friend. It keeps a new Brother connected to his Lodge and shows his true determination to learn about the Craft. New York, to the best of my knowledge, is not planning to make any changes in the required proficiency, and I for one am glad. I help run the Lodge of Instruction for my District and I, and I believe my new Brethren as well, value the time spent together working on ritual. POTS Jay D. Marksheid Mt. Masada-Galaxy #902, F&AM-NY Tuckahoe, NY jaymar@pipeline.com Date: 10-30-96 (22:48) Number: 435 of 456 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Women and Freemasons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <558m01$e5a@news2.cais.com> The Masonic family _does_ have ways "to make good women better women." Unfortunately, all but one (IORG) of them requires that the woman (or girl in case of IOJD) be related to a Master Mason. I, for one, would like to see that restriction replaced with the only requirement being that of good character etc. But any such change is going to require a long time, and perhaps the passing of an older generation resistant to any modification of such admission requirements. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 10-30-96 (09:57) Number: 444 of 456 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: alsoyk@u.washington.edu, A SOYK Subj: Re: Women and Freemasons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: University of Washington Message-ID: One thing I have noticed in these various articles about women becoming masons is that very little mention has been made regarding the organizations accepting both men and women, Amaranth and Eastern Star. In these you not only get to share in the beliefs of country, friendship, and honor but you can share them with your fellow man and women. The two compliment each other so well and that is often overlooked in the fight to know what the men are doing and wanting a part in it. Sororities do not allow men and fraternities do not allow women at the University level, why should masons be any different? In an age when we all want what everyone else has, we often look past what we already have. While I agree that a women's variation of the masons, for women only, is an attractive idea, it has only been done in a few areas. I don't know of any women masons, but perhaps this is because I am not looking for them. I am curious yes, but I am content with the descriptions that my male relatives and friends give me, honoring their vow to their order and respecting their willingness to keep it. I don't want you to think that this is an attack on your opinion, I just wanted to remind people that there are other options to becoming and striving for women masons. I can't truthfully say that if there were womens lodges widespread, I wouldn't join. In fact, I probably would. But since this isn't really an option at the time, I become involved in what is available to me. One suggestion is to become a member of the advisory boards for Jobs Daughters or Rainbow. You get to participate in women-only masonic groups and shape the lives and minds of our future. Sincerely, Alecia Soyk PHQ,MM International Order of Jobs Daughters Member, Order of the Amaranth On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, jenny wrote: > They also say how it improves their own and others' lives. So share that > wonderful experience & make "good women, better women". Surely working > together we can achieve a better society. What good would it be if only men > knew those special life secrets to working in harmony and peace if you Date: 10-30-96 (09:57) Number: 444 of 456 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: alsoyk@u.washington.edu, A SOYK Subj: Re: Women and Freemasons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: University of Washington Message-ID: One thing I have noticed in these various articles about women becoming masons is that very little mention has been made regarding the organizations accepting both men and women, Amaranth and Eastern Star. In these you not only get to share in the beliefs of country, friendship, and honor but you can share them with your fellow man and women. The two compliment each other so well and that is often overlooked in the fight to know what the men are doing and wanting a part in it. Sororities do not allow men and fraternities do not allow women at the University level, why should masons be any different? In an age when we all want what everyone else has, we often look past what we already have. While I agree that a women's variation of the masons, for women only, is an attractive idea, it has only been done in a few areas. I don't know of any women masons, but perhaps this is because I am not looking for them. I am curious yes, but I am content with the descriptions that my male relatives and friends give me, honoring their vow to their order and respecting their willingness to keep it. I don't want you to think that this is an attack on your opinion, I just wanted to remind people that there are other options to becoming and striving for women masons. I can't truthfully say that if there were womens lodges widespread, I wouldn't join. In fact, I probably would. But since this isn't really an option at the time, I become involved in what is available to me. One suggestion is to become a member of the advisory boards for Jobs Daughters or Rainbow. You get to participate in women-only masonic groups and shape the lives and minds of our future. Sincerely, Alecia Soyk PHQ,MM International Order of Jobs Daughters Member, Order of the Amaranth On Wed, 30 Oct 1996, jenny wrote: > They also say how it improves their own and others' lives. So share that > wonderful experience & make "good women, better women". Surely working > together we can achieve a better society. What good would it be if only men > knew those special life secrets to working in harmony and peace if you Date: 10-30-96 (22:34) Number: 445 of 456 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: giordano@nytimes.com, LOU GIORDANO Subj: Re: Post degree examinations Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: New York Times Message-ID: <558l63$oer@newsgate.nytimes.com> wrote: >In New Jersey, we have a long examination of questions pertaining >to the degree undertaken, that candidates are required to learn. >This includes recital of the entire obligation from memory. Many >of the members now feel that this requirement is almost a deterrent >and of little value for the progression thru the degrees. There >seems at times, to be a rush to get the vandidate thru quickly - >before they lose interest(!??). I'm curious as to what other >states have regarding the same. Your opnion is obviously welcome, >but I'm curious as to the factual requirements across the country. >Please post publicly, so we can all learn. Thanks. >Greeting brother...my mane is Lou Giordano, Reliance Lodge #776, 2nd Kings Dis trict, New York State. In reply to your question, we have had the good fortune to raise 3 or 4 candidates per year for the past 5 ye ars or so. Our education commettee meets with the men before the first degree, we show them a vido tape created by Grand Lodge, and then have an hour or two over coffee to answer their questions and instruct them on what to expect in the coming months. We meet wit h our newly entered brothers aprox. three weeks after the 1st degree to test them on the work of the degree(which they must memorize ), show them the second part of the tape, and more qu estions and instructions. The same thing after the 2nd degree. After the third we meet with the newly raised brothers for the 4th an d last official time, again for other questions and further instruction, such a s lodge protocol, what will be expected of them as fu ll members of our lodge, the dues requirements, and a host of other things too numerous to memtion here. It is also at that time we as one of our brothers who has been in the lodge a few years to take the new br other under his wing so to speak, sit with him during the first few meetings, e tc. We have found that this type of program has been very successful for us unlike many lodge who bring in 10 or 12 new members every y ear and see only 1 or 2 or none show up after. When we take in new members,we h ave been enjoying a 99% return. I hope this will be helpful to your and any oth er brother our there in electronic mailland. Date: 10-30-96 (23:48) Number: 446 of 456 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: smaurer@direct.ca, SMAURER Subj: Sparetime Money maker Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Canada Internet Direct, Inc. Message-ID: <559hut$b3k@aphex.direct.ca> Make Money slowly, Not even the lottery is for free, but if you are determent to build up your own home business, this is your best OPPORTUNITY. I will show you how if you whish. Contact smaurer@direct.ca for more Information. Date: 10-30-96 (22:49) Number: 447 of 456 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: scb00556@mail.wvnet.edu, JOHNNY PHOENIX Subj: cancel Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Message-ID: Organization: Dreamchamber VIII Productions cancel Date: 10-30-96 (22:52) Number: 448 of 456 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: scb00556@mail.wvnet.edu, JOHNNY PHOENIX Subj: Converse with a Brother Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Message-ID: Organization: Dreamchamber VIII Productions I'm in West Virginia right now, and the news tonight was talking about the problem with arson and vandalism on what they're calling "Devil's Night". The police and firefighters are waiting for the first call. The fire department wouldn't even interview because they didn't want to insite these people to light fires. I was thinking about a friend of mine saying how foolish his sister was for driving home on Halloween night. Why? Just the other night, on the way back from Charleston, someone had put construction barriers across the centre of the highway! These idiots are probably my age! I'm in a town where the Masonic Temple is in ruins. I asked a local policeman about it; "Lack of membership" he said. Stuff like this makes me see the connexion. Now I'm not saying all Brothers are perfect, I know I'm not, but we're trying obviously! I guess my question is: Are we the only ones trying? I'm a composer and I came here to get away from "big city life", what's different? Just roles and actors? I guess I'm feeling a little 'down', and nothing makes me feel better than talking to my Brothers, so what do you think?? If the Temple was full, would it help? .... Well of course, but it's not. Now what? If everyone understood the value of another? .... How do we tell them? Trying to get on track here...... Yrs., J. S. Daniel Date: 10-30-96 (12:54) Number: 449 of 456 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: thehalls@elite.net, MIKE HALL Subj: Re: Curious Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Elite Networking - Merced, CA Message-ID: In article <553r8a$ogq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, racer05@aol.com (Racer05) wrote: > First, I'm not a Mason but I'm curious. I've visited Roger Ingersoll's > site and downloaded a great deal of information. Freemasonry sounds like > a good organization to me, but I've got sort of a checkered past. Are > there any disqualifications for membership? If any one is interested in > enlightening me please respond by e-mail, as I may not check this > newsgroup again in the near term. > > P.S. Not looking to flame Masons, this is a sincere question. Masonry requires that you be "a man, freeborn, under the tongue of good report, and coming well recommended." Obviously this is open to a lot of interpretation and each Lodge and each individual Mason will have his own idea of what the "tongue of good report" means. Anyone who petitions a Lodge is investigated by a committee of Lodge members, who then report back to the Lodge with their recommendations. The recommendation of this committee, as well as the recommendation of the four men who sign your petition, will carry a lot of weight. Whatever your "checkered past" is, the individual members of the lodge will have to weigh whatever information they have about it and decide how to cast their ballots. In most Lodges one "no" vote is enough to disqualify from membership. I am not trying to discourage you from applying. The only absolute DISQUALIFICATIONS are being an "atheist, a madman or a fool" (or not a man). You will have to consider how much scrutiny you want your life subjected to ... Mike Hall Master Mason Yosemite Lodge #99 Merced CA ======================================================== Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something. ======================================================== I'll look at yours if you'll look at mine!! Visit me at: http://www.elite.net/~thehalls ======================================================== Date: 10-31-96 (03:59) Number: 450 of 456 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais2.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Freemasonry - The secret revealed at last Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <55987f$m1c@news2.cais.com> In article <3277EFA1.5B89@earthlink.net>, wrote: >> Seek the Light. You will be happier for it. > >> Fraternal greetings to you all - and be at Peace, without and within. >> Bro Gerry Sargent.MM. Bedford 282, UGLE. > > >Lucifer masqurades as an angel of Light. When you say seek the Light, >what are you talking about? "Lucifer" is the Latin word used to refer to the planet Venus when it rose in the morning before the sun (as it is doing currently). It was the translation in the Vulgate of the Greek word "Phosphorus" meaning the same thing, which was in turn the translation in the Septuagint of the Hebrew word "heyleyl." It occurs only once in the Bible, in Isaiah, and was a metaphor for the arrogance of the King of Babylon who thought himself as glorious as a brilliant celestial body (Venus being the third brightest object in the sky on a predictable basis--supernovae and comets being possible but not regular brighter ones), but who had fallen from such heights of folly when punished by the Lord. Mediaeval and later translators kept the Latin word unchanged, rather than rendering it properly as either Venus or as "morning star" (as the JPS Bible does, translating directly from the Masoretic text), which would have given the sense more clearly. Later writers, especially Marlowe and Milton, misread the erroneous translation further, taking the verse out of context, and popularized "Lucifer" as the name of some evil entity, rather than as merely an astronomical term. In other words, get a grip! "Light" does not mean "Lucifer," and "Lucifer" is no name for anything real, other than a planet in the solar system as referred to by a long-dead civilization. When someone refers to the Enlightenment, do you think that means that in the 18th century, "Lucifer" or the devil took over Europe? When someone says, "Now I see the light," do you interpret that to mean that he perceives an apparation of Satan (or "Lucifer") or simply that he understands something that he didn't previously? Were the "Dark Ages" somehow _good_ because there was no "light?" In the comic strips, when a light bulb appears over a character's head, does that mean he has an idea, or does it mean he has been possessed by the devil? Sorry, but "light" has always been a symbol of knowledge and learning. It has been used that way for as long as we have records of civilization. If "light" means "the devil" to _you_, well, that's your problem. Check out that passage in Matthew about motes and beams, why don't you, and then get back to us. _We_ aren't obsessed with the devil, or Satan, or "Lucifer"; that's all in _your_ head. I've been a Mason for just shy of twenty years, and I think I've heard another Mason bring up the devil just once. (And he was surprised to learn that I don't believe in any such thing--but of course, such beliefs are of essentially pagan origin, anyway, and they aren't found much in Judaism of modern times.) Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 10-31-96 (18:35) Number: 471 of 479 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: freemason@aol.com, FREEMASON Subj: Re: PRINCE HALL LODGES re: robert milton Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Message-ID: <55bd4e$i8n@newsbf02.news.aol.com> In article <54ka5k$675@jaguar.wild.net>, joken@wild.net writes: >Subject: Re: PRINCE HALL LODGES re: robert milton >From: joken@wild.net >Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 05:34:42 GMT > Joken, I normally don't waste my time responding to your tripe - I have a life away from the computer, thank G-d. From what I've read of your postings, your assertions about mASSons seem to be from personal experience, say, by looking in your mirror each morning? Your posts indicate the intellectual understanding of someone akin to the south end of a northbound horse. Get a life, and quit wasting bandwidth. >x-no-archive: yes >dwwest1@ix.netcom.com wrote: >>On Sun, 20 Oct 1996 05:47:12 GMT, jwintermute@ids2.idsonline.com >>(Janet & John Wintermute) wrote: > >>(snip) > > >>Mrs. Wintermute, > >>After reading your post, my thoughts are that West Virginia Masons are >>going to be a bit angry at your judgement that they are unable to >>understand the difference between clandestine and unrecognized. > Being one of those WV Masons, I take exception to the Wintermutes' assertion that we are unable to understand the difference between and Unfortunately, I have met too many Masons, both in and out of WV, who don't know the difference, and don't bother to figure it out for themselves. Little distinction is made between clandestine and irregular in the WV Laws of Masonry. It took my traveling in several states, and constant correspondence with Masons in those states, as well as reading such books as "Mackey's Jurisprudence," before I could make the distinction. It is a matter of education, and the GL of WV has, for too many years, concerned themselves more with proficiency in Ritual than in educating its members - it has left the education aspect strictly up to the individual. Unfortunately, the individual Mason may not have the time, available resources, nor the inclination to learn. It doesn't mean they are stupid, it just means that they recognize there is more to life than stuffing one's nose into a book. Also unfortunately, some of those same WV Masons think that King Solomon the first Grand Master of Masons, the Craft in those days spoke perfect English, and that the Blue Lodge is all that a Mason needs to know. Come to think of it, that is not exclusive to WV Masonry - I have seen it in other places where a lack of a good education program is in effect. Robert, are you Maybe you can get an education program that involves more than just Ritual proficiency, instituted by the GL. In other words, quit yer bitchin' and get to work :) >>You also seem to say in so many words, that (Mountaineers?) are >>incapable of discerning the meaning of F&AM. Mrs Wintermute, that is >>grossly elitist! It emplies that a whole sector of our population (not >>just West Virginia *Masons*) are mentally deficient and that a simple >>task is "outside their learning curve." The same could be said about anti-ism. To discern truth for oneself appears to be too. Randy Spradling, H.P., P.C.W., K.T., 32 Huntington (WV) 53 AF&AM To know oneself is the ultimate form of agression. - the cornerstone of Freudian Psychology To: ALL From: acacia@rmc1.crocker.com, ACACIA PRESS, INC Subj: Masonic Trinity ~ 1910 ANTI MASONIC!!!! Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Crocker Communciations (crocker.com) Message-ID: FREE MASONRY EXPOSED:The Subject Treated From A Bible Standpoint. Showing The D ifference Between Masonic Religion And Bible Salvation. BY FRED HUSTED. ©1996 Acacia Press, Incorporated. MONTAGUE, MASSACHUSETTS. Originally Published circa 1910: GOSPEL TRUMPET PUBLISHING COMPANY GRAND JUNCTION,MICHIGAN CHAPTER 2: THE MASONIC TRINITY. Masonry like nearly all other religions is based upon a symbolic foundation. The true religion, or salvation was designed, created and carried out by the triune GodGod, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,three in one. Masonry, a false religion, also has a trinity. Ancient idolatry had its trinities, and modern idolatry has its trinities. Satan, the arch-counterfeiter, is the father of all lies as well as false systems of worship. Now in order to deceive people, and especially an intelligent people, his device, or plan, or counterfeit must be built likewise, so as to appear genuine. A counterfeit dollar is the more dangerous the more nearly it resembles the real, because it is the more likely to deceive. Every one understands, or rather is aware that God is known as a triune being; recognizes himself as such. God the Father is represented as strength, as a rock. Isa. 17: 10; Psa. 24:8; Job 9:19. God the Son is represented as the Savior. Matt. 1:21. A mediator. I Tim. 2:5; Heb. 8:6. The true light. Jno. 1:4,9, etc. God the Holy Ghost. represented as wisdom, or the source of wisdom. Jno. 14:26. As inspiring scripture. 2 Tim. 3:16. As directing the world or gospel of God, as to where it should be preached. Acts 16:6,7,10. How it should be preached. I Cor. 2:4. Reveals what the gospel is. I Cor. 2:12. These three are here set forth in their offices in the true system. References will be found to many of the above scriptures that will enable the reader to push investigation as much further as he likes. The above will give the offices of each in a general way sufficient to see the illustration to follow. Masonry in a way acknowledges what it calls the Grand Architect of the Universe; but prefers to symbolize him by three persons, whom we now proceed to investigate. First, the symbolic structure of Masonry is supported by three symbolic pillars; namely, wisdom, strength, and beauty. These three pillars are in Masonic terms, Solomon, representing in the Masonic trinity the pillar of wisdom. Hiram, king of Tyre, representing the pillar of strength, and Hiram Abiff, the widow's son, representing the pillar of beauty. Here we have the Masonic foundation. Their trinity upon which Satan builds one of his most cunning, if not his most cunning and elaborate counterfeit of God's divinity, and God's plan of salvation. The offices of Solomon as wisdom, and Hiram as strength, i. e., counterfeits of the Holy Ghost, and of the Father, can be readily seen from the above. The Masonic lectures clear up that matter wonderfully. The question here arises: Who was Hiram Abiff? If he is a symbol of the Son, how does it appear that he is known as the pillar of beauty, or one of the trinity. Christ in the trinity is our example. I Jno. 1:26. Hiram Abiff is the standard of true Masonry, and all Masons are instructed to pattern after him. (See Masonic Lectures.) Being assured that if they do so they will gain an entrance into "The Grand lodge" that Masons tell us is above, where the lecture tells us the Grand Architect presides, etc., etc. Hiram Abiff then is the Masonic mediator, even as Christ is the Christian mediator. Christ suffered for the sins of the world in order to complete the Father's plan. Hiram Abiff, (see Legend of the Temple Builders) was put to death by fellow crafts because he would not comply with their demands, and break his word, and so violate his compact with Solomon and Hiram of Tyre in reference to the Master's Word," which was the most important secret or tie of Masonry, and held by those three alone at that time. This word, had it been revealed, would have destroyed the foundation of Masonry and the plan of its "alleged" founders. Hence Masonry according to their Masonic fable was preserved by the faithfulness of Hiram Abiff, who preferred death to the giving up to the temptation to purchase life by the violation of his oath. This is simply a condensed account of Hiram Abiff to show his part or place in the Masonic trinity. Turn now to the scripture and we find that when man sinned the Trinity had a plan for man's salvation. The Son was ordained as the sacrifice, who should put on the body of flesh, and come among men and suffer death as a man, in order that the plan of salvation might be carried out. He was tempted in all points as we are, yet he maintained his integrity, and at the cost of his life carried out the work God assigned him, so that salvation was realized. In the Masonic plan we find two wonderful men, kings Solomon and Hiram; one str ong and one wise. Solomon, to whom David gave the plan of the temple, being the author, gave the designing into the hands of Hiram Abiff, who drew the designs for the work on his trestle board for the workmen to copy after and work by. So Christ was among men, and by his life and work among men, gave them a design, or pattern by which to build a spiritual house. We recognize readily by the Bible that the building of the temple was a type of the spiritual house, or temple of God, "which temple ye are." And as there was no sound of hammer or tool of iron when it went up, so should the temple of God be built to day. The word and Spirit reveal that fact clearly. Solomon in building the temple represented wisdom, or the Holy Ghost himself acting as a type of the Holy Ghost workman in the building to be built in the heavens. Hiram as furnishing workmen, timber, etc., and fetching them from different points represents the strength of the Father considered separate from the others for the sake of illustration. Hiram, the workman and designer drew patterns as God showed him, and while there with them directed the work until his "alleged" death, which of course Masons have no Bible foundation for. The only places where Hiram, or Huram the Architect is mentioned being in 2 Chron., 4th chapter, and I Kings 7th chapter, and those have reference only to his nativity, his world and its quality. So as nothing more was said of him, Satan filled the hearts of Masonic founders to take this man and make a savior out of him. The Masonic story of Hiram Abiff then is a fable, continued by Satan to mock the word of God. "The Legend of the Temple Builders" is acted out in full while conferring the latter part of the third, or Master Mason's degree. The candidate is assaulted and the "word" is demanded of him (which as yet he has not received); he is then at the third assault struck on the head by a stuffed club called a setting maul, and symbolically killed. Then after a number of maneuvers he is buried on Mt. Moriah. He is missed, and after a long search his grave is found. Then comes the most damnable piece of mockery that Satan and the councils of hell could invent. A mock resurrection follows, and by the aid of Solomon and Hiram of Tyre he is raised from the dead by a grip known as the "Strong grip of the Lion of the tribe of Judah." Satan's counterfeit is complete, and the fiends of hell rejoice every time they see a poor blind candidate put through the mockery of coming from darkness to "Masonic" light. And yet men who profess to not only follow Christ, but preach his gospel also, support, countenance, attend, and recommend the institution to their sons and their friends. The "Legend of Hiram Abiff the Temple Builder" is copied from the legend of Osiris the Egyptian deity, and so closely resembles it as to prove the one to be copied from the other. Mackey says a great deal about "ancient mysteries," Egyptian rites, and also speaks of Osiris and others; and by following up his works, notes etc., "Pierson's Traditions," and "Morris' Dictionary" we are able to trace Masonry to right where it originated, i. e., in ancient Baal or sun worship. See Ezek. 8th chapter and especially 16th verse. Ezekiel clearly saw ancient Masonry in that vision. Tammuz, spoken of in verse 14, has reference to Adonis, another person, whose, history corresponds to that of Hiram and Osiris. Sun worship it clearly is, worked over to make what Dr. Oliver proudly calls "A universal religion." Dr. Oliver is a noted English Masonic writer and historian. He says, "To Christianize Masonry by praying to or through Christ would sink it from its sublime position as a universal religion to the level of a sect." There is a "learned Masonic" opinion of Christ. What do you think of it? No Christ there, is there? One Mason of my acquaintance, who at the time of which I speak had been a member of this order only a few months, said to me, "There is a god in Masonry, but no Christ." He had learned that in a few months, and yet said that he was a follower of Christ. Beloved, how can these things be? All Masons know the truth of this matter. Can God look in mercy upon a man who professes his name, and yet touches these unclean, unholy, idolatrous worlds, or partakes with them? Again before all of God's people I praise him for delivering me from such works. "Whom Christ makes free is free indeed." Such works as "Mackey's Lexicon," also his "Ritual," "Pierson's Traditions," "Morris' Dictionary," and other works Show what those great Masons who are acknowledged authority, say of Masonry as a religion, as well as of other points. Those men have by their works enabled me to see more of Masonry than the average Mason sees in a life time. The books referred to, as well as their authors, are all standard, and are not "exposes" in any sense of the word, yet they are keys by which he who has been in the secret chambers of the lodge can unlock the secrets of Masonry to the world, and prove every step he takes. Truly, truly, did Christ say "Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant."Luke 19:22. "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.Matt. 12:37. O foolish Masons, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you! So Satan has overstepped himself, and while he thinks himself safely entrenched, God has found him out, and will pull him and his worlds down, even though they have climbed up another way. ################################### For more information on Freemasonry check out the WWW site below Acacia Press, Incorporated http://www.crocker.com/~acacia/index.html PO BOX 154, Montague, MA 01351 Date: 11-01-96 (23:07) Number: 514 of 576 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: plutonium@earthlink.net, PLUTONIUM Subj: Re: The Royal Secret of Albert Pike. Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: plutonium films productions Message-ID: <327AF336.1BD7@earthlink.net> Reply-To: plutonium@earthlink.net tmorgen wrote: > > Dear Robert, > You can see just how 'sincere' some people actually are. I have talked to > most of the folks who come to this group to distrurb it and found that > without > an audience, they soon loose interest. If these people were sincere, I > could > accept what they say Is Albert Pike 'sincere' enough for you? Quote from Pike's book "Morals and Dogma" "The Royal Secret, of which you are Prince, if you are a true Adept, if knowledge seems to you advisable, and Philosophy is, for you, radiant with divine beauty, is that which the Sohar (Kabalah) terms The Mystery of the Balance. It is the secret of the Universal Equilibrium:- ... - Of that Equilibrium between Good and Evil, Light and Darkness in the world, which assures us that all is the work of Infinite Wisdom and of an Infinite Love; and that there is no rebelllious demon of Evil, or Principle of Darkness co-existent and in eternal controversy with God, or the Principle of Light and of Good: by attaining to the knowledge of which equilibrium we can, through Faith, see that the existence of Evil, Sin, Suffering, and Sorrow in the world, is consistent with the Infinite Goodness as well as the Infinite Wisdom of the Almighty. Sympathy and Antipathy, Atraction and Repulsion, each a Force of nature, are contraries, in the souls of men and in the Universe of spheres and worlds; and from the action and opposition of each against the other, result Harmony, and that movment which is the life of the universe and the Soul alike... The force that repels a Planet from the Sun is no more an evil force, then that which attracts the Planet toward the central Luminary; for each is created and exerted by the Deity, and the result is the harmonious movemnet of the obedient Planets in their elliptic orbits, and the mathematical accuracy and unvarying regularity of their movements... So man is one, though of a double nature; and he attains the purpose of his being only when the two natures that are in him are in just equilibrium; and his life is a success only when it too is a harmony, and beautiful, like the great Harmonies of God and the Universe. Such, my Brother, is the True Word of a Master Mason; such the true Royal Secret, which makes possible, and shall at length make real, the Holy Empire of true Masonic Brotherhood. Amen." *End of book* From: "Morals and Dogma" by: Albert Pike Chapter XXXII (Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret) The Occult Science of the Ancient Magi - The Ancient Mysteries. Will there you have it. If that isn't as clear as to what the Royal secret is then you must be blind in mind. You lower class Masons 'ought to buy a copy of Pike's book. It's great! Pike is a Genius! Don't let these self rightious 32nd and 33rd degree'rs keep this great truth away from you. Pike is one of the Greatest Masons that ever lived. Go ahead and this great truth out you lying Hipocrites. The Royal Secret is out. Pike wanted it out. God is Dualistic, Good and Evil at the same time. There is no Devil, God is the Devil and the Holy God at the same time! Worship this two headed God you Masons. You are called upon to Worship him. This is the great *Light* The Great Architect of the Universe. Lucifer! Why are all of you 33rd's trying to censure this Knowledge? Date: 10-29-96 (22:39) Number: 515 of 576 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: PLZ@macbroker.com, PATRICE Subj: Re: New Membership Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: CompuServe Incorporated Message-ID: In article <3260DA6A.7E9A@ids.net>, David Thornley wrote: >I put a post on this newsgroup a short time ago and was a little >disappointed with the response. I am going to try this one more time. >I am interested in ideas to boost membership. I would like to know what >has worked and what has not. I am also interested in your opinions on >this subject. >Thank You For Your Help Brothers >David Thornley >Barney Merry # 29 >USA > Dear Brother David, I don't know if this may help, but since I happily belong to a GL (Grand Lodge of France) which membership doubles every ten years, here is how things happen here: Most of our meetings are held at the EA degree (AASR) since it takes two years between degrees. We start our meetings (2 or 3 per month) by opening ritually. Then we first have the roll call. (Our Lodges usually have around 50 members as it proved a maximum number to allow them to know each other well. The attendance is around 80%). Then the mail is read and eventual decisions voted. After that, we regularly have what we call 5 minutes of symbolism. This is the lecture of a paper on a symbolic subject which has been prepared by an EA or a FC and which is read by the JW for the EA or by the FC himself. The EA and FC have to prepare 3 papers, one of them being his lecture (followed by questions and a vote) in order to gain the next degree. Then, we proceed to the "main dish" which is a lecture prepared by a MM than can be about symbolism, history, philosophy or even scientific. This lecture is followed by a debate when the Brethren can ask for clarifications or bring their stone by underlining a different or unseen aspect of the question. Some lecturers and/or subjects are quite sought after and this encourages visiting a lot. We then close ritually and proceed to a local restaurant, where most often the debate goes on. I also take this opportunity (since I noticed some misinformations in some messages on this newsgroup) that the Lodges of the Grand Lodge of France ask their candidates to hold a belief in a creative principle, work to the glory of the GAOTU, admit no women, have the Bible, Square and Compass on the Altar and forbid discussing political or religious issues. Sincerely and Fraternally, Patrice Loge l'Etoile #1001 Grande Loge de France, Paris Date: 11-02-96 (12:40) Number: 524 of 576 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: PLZ@macbroker.com, PATRICE Subj: Re: Women and Freemasons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: CompuServe Incorporated Message-ID: In article <327615D5.1911@hutch.com.au>, jenny wrote: >What good would it be if only men >knew those special life secrets to working in harmony and peace if you >constantly have a bunch of :) *rogue* women around?? Hello Jenny, Don't worry, women's Masonry is as old as Men's one but simply more discreet. Depending on where you are in the world, you may find mixed or women's only Lodges. Feminine Freemasonry is most important in England with 60,000 Sisters. In the US you may get in touch with the Droit Humain American Federation (mixed) or the Grande Loge Feminine de Belgique which, for the moment, has a Lodge in NYC, is planning to create some others in LA and WDC. Hope this helps, Patrice Date: 11-02-96 (18:30) Number: 555 of 576 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: joken@wild.net, JOKEN ANTI MASONRY!!!!!!!!!!!! Subj: Re: SELLING DEAD HORSES Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: x-no-archive: yes Message-ID: <55fvp9$8t2@jaguar.wild.net> Reply-To: joken@wild.net x-no-archive: yes thanks Acacia Press, that was interesting. Perhaps you will post more. joken For more informatiopn on Freemasonry, visit the WWW site below. Acacia Press, Incorporated http://www.crocker.com/~acacia/index.html PO BOX 154, Montague, MA 01351 ANTI-MASONIC SCRAP BOOK: Consisting Of Forty-three Anti-Secrecy Tracts from the NATIONAL CHRISTIAN ASSOCATION Acacia Press, Incorporated. MONTAGUE, MASSACHUSETTS Oringinally Published: 1883 NATIONAL CHRISTIAN ASSOCIATION CHICAGO, ILLINOIS Tract No. 16: SELLING DEAD HORSES Paying for a dead horse is usually regarded as a very depressing occupation, but buying a dead horse would seem to be still less inspiriting. Suppose, for example, a man says, "What will you give me for my horse?" "Which horse?" "Why, my black one; the one which cost me three hundred dollars" "Do you wish to sell him?" "Yes. I would be willing to." "What is your price?" "Well, that depends. If you will pledge me your word of bettor that you will never under any circumstances divulge the particulars of the trade to any person, but will always conceal and never reveal anything pertaining to it, I will sell you that horse for one hundred and fifty dollars and take your note payable one year from date with interest." The man considers the matter; he has seen the hose, knows it to be a stylish, high-stepping nag, and thinking the bargain a good one he makes the purchase, writes the note and hands it over, and is told: "You will find the horse in the field back of the barn; go and get him whenever you please." He goes, and to his astonishment finds the horse has been dead a week, and is frozen stiff as a rail. He comes back in great wrath and disgust and reproaches the sharper who has thus wronged him, but is met with an emphatic- "Hush! Did you not promise me most solemnly, upon your word of honor, that you would not under any circumstances divulge the particulars of this bargain to any person ?" "But you are a swindler and a cheat, and I will never pay you the money." "Be quiet, my friend," is the reply, "some one may hear you. You promised never under any circumstances to mention this trade, but always to conceal and never reveal the facts in the case. I hold your note for the hundred and fifty dollars; I regard your note as good; I believe you to be a man of honor; I expect you will pay the note at maturity and make no fuss about it. Remember I have your pledge never to mention this matter to any person under any circumstances; and if you violate your promise in this respect, who will believe you in any statement which you may make? You will confess yourself a liar and a wretch destitute of honor and integrity, and thus will impeach your own character and discredit your own assertions." A man who had been thus over-reached would probably consider himself in rather a disagreeable predicament. Whether he would pay the note and avoid trouble, or refuse to pay it and defy his adversary, would depend partly on how much courage he had, and partly on his estimate of the power his adversary possessed If he found that the man who had over-reached him had sold the same horse to a hundred other persons and had bullied them in the same way, he might perhaps make common cause with some of them, and they together might resist the swindle. If, on the other hand, he found that nine-tenths of the men who had bought the horse had paid their notes to save disgrace and had concluded to reimburse themselves by the same trick and had been selling dead horses to their neighbors in the community, so that nearly every one of them had got his money back by swindling some other simpleton, and that they had bound and banded themselves together under tile most solemn obligations and decided by every possible means to misuse and abuse those who divulged the particulars of their craftiness, it is possible if he was a timid man that he would deem it his safest course to get his hand out of the lion's mouth as easily as he could; pay his note, pocket the loss, and go about his business. But no man looking at such a swindle in its legal aspects would counsel submission to it. Any lawyer would advise a man to refuse the payment of such a note as that if it remained in the hands of the person to whom it was given, and, if the claim was carried into court, to plead a want of consideration; and, furthermore, to prosecute the man for swindling and fraud and send him to the state's prison. The business of selling dead horses sounds a little strange, but something remarkably like it prevails to a large extent. There are societies of men which profess to sell to their fellow men great secrets, hidden depths of wisdom, honors, titles, and dignities which are of great value. The bargain is always made in secret. The purchaser is bound never to disclose the terms of the transaction; he must never tell what he purchased, nor the price he paid; the most solemn obligations are imposed and the most fearful penalties are appended in case those obligation should be violated; and thus a man having paid his money and given his note, his pledge, or his promise, receives in return, what? A dead horse? No, but certain secrets, grips, passwords, and similar useless flummery, concerning which on examination he finds that the secrets have been published to the world for years; that the terms of the bargain have been disclosed a hundred times; that the grips and passwords are thus known by multitudes outside of the association, and that the whole thing, so far as wisdom, knowledge, or value is concerned, is a deceptive swindle, compared with which the sale of dead horses may be regarded as an honorable transaction. But under these circumstances the man finds himself bound by the most tremendous pledges, and under the sanction of the most awful penalties, never, on any account or under any circumstances, to divulge the secrets of the transaction, or the particulars of the obligations imposed upon him. He must abide by the bargain which he has made. He can not fail in the performance of one jot or one tittle thereof; and he must furthermore see others hoodwinked and swindled in the same manner that he has been, and as he values his life must lift no warning voice, and impose no obstacle to prevent the wrong that is being done. And if his conscience will not allow him to do this, then he must be branded as a false and perjured traitor and no terms of reproach or infa my are too severe to express the detestation in which he is held by those who, having swindled him, are determined to swindle others in the same way. Of course, a judicial review of the matter would at once liberate him from all obligations; he has but to plead a lack of consideration; he bought a horse, not a dead carcass; he paid for wisdom, not folly and tomfoolery; he purchased secrets, and not open and well-known matters which have been blazed and published from Dan to Beersheba. When he bound himself to keep the secrets it was with the understanding that there were secrets to keep. Said a Masonic minister to the writer: "You cannot reveal the secrets of Masonry, no Man can reveal them; how can you reveal that which has already been revealed and published to the world a dozen times?" Twenty-five cents judiciously invested in Anti-masonic publication, will give more real knowledge of Freemasonry than twenty-five dollars invested in dead horses in the shape of initiation to Masonic degrees; only let purchasers be sure that they obtain genuine Anti-masonic publications instead of the spurious Morgan books issued by Masons themselves for the purpose of misleading and deceiving the public. The dead horse flourishes. Whoever cares to expose the swindle is denounced as a "perjured villain," and if he does not imperil his life, everything which can be done covertly for his injury and embarassment will not fail to be done. Let sensible men take warning; let young men look before they leap; let them make no secret bargains and buy no hoses till they can first see for themselves whether they are dead or alive. ################################# For more information on Freemasonry, visit the WWW site below. Acacia Press, Incorporated http://www.crocker.com/~acacia/index.html PO BOX 154, Montague, MA 01351 Date: 11-02-96 (10:57) Number: 559 of 576 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: thehalls@elite.net, MIKE HALL Subj: Re: Masonic Campgrounds Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Elite Networking - Merced, CA Message-ID: In article <01bbc78e$09b10460$21c428cf@tmorgen>, "tmorgen" wrote: > Ok, Danny. Don't leave it at this. What is Bohemian Grove? Is this another > one of your conspiracy factories? > Regards, Ted > > Danny Sale wrote in article > <5595a2$e4d@ns2.southeast.net>... > > >My DDGM had mentioned that there was a network of Masonic campgrounds in > > >the USA. Would any Brother who has knowledge of this list please e mail > me > > >with info. Thanks..... > > > > Perhaps you are looking for Bohemian Grove in Sonoma county, San > > Francisco California. The Bohemian Club in San Francisco is a very old and very well-known group composed primarily of wealthy white men. As would be expected it is a hotbed of Republicans, and I would have no doubt it also includes some Masons. Every summer the members retire to the "Bohemian Grove" for a month of revelry and horse-play much oiled by alcohol. Their honored guests include many of the most important men in the country, including Presidents Reagan, Bush and Ford (but not Clinton!) The Consipiracy nuts have of course seized on this play session of overgrown little boys to be one of their big bugaboos and would have us believe that domestic and foreign policy is being made in the Bohemian Grove every year ... I am not surprised that Danny belongs to that school ... Mike Hall MM Yosemite Lodge #99 Merced CA ======================================================== Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something. ======================================================== I'll look at yours if you'll look at mine!! Visit me at: http://www.elite.net/~thehalls ======================================================== Date: 11-03-96 (00:22) Number: 561 of 576 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: mstiler@genmagic.com, MICHAEL STILER Subj: Re: Freemasons/slavery Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: General Magic, Inc. Message-ID: <55gojh$bq@cnn.genmagic.com> joken@wild.net writes: >x-no-archive: yes ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well, Joken the cowardly mouse posts again! Whasamatter Bubbileh? Scared some one will keep track of what your saying? >mstiler@genmagic.com (Michael Stiler) wrote: > >>To bring up something that occured multi-hundred of years ago has no bearing >>on what does NOT go on today. >>Mike >So Mikey, when masons say that women shouldn't be masons because >mutliy-hundred years ago there were only men masons, then we can >assume that you disagree with your brother's view? Not even close Ken. But then again, you never are. The Ancient Landmarks (you know, the root requirements of all Masonry) specifically state that women will not be made Masons. No matter how I feel about women, and I think they're the greatest thing since sliced _and_ buttered bread, I've joined a FRATERnity (you know the definition: a group of MEN joined together for fellowship). If I wanted to have women Masons in my Lodge I would have joined a Co-Masonic group (relatively new in historical terms). >Just what did the doc say in regards to women in masonry? >I quote: >>"Women do many fine things in the world in general and in the various >Masonic family organizations. The Lodge itself derives from the >builder's art, and women were not employed in building King Solomon's >Temple or the great edifices of mediaeval times. That fact is quite >sufficient to justify our traditions. There is no need to invent base >characterizations of women that makes them _unfit_ for membership in >the Lodge. (Do you claim that men are never emotional, moody, or >illogical? What planet are you from?)" end quote. As is expected and usual from the good Doctor Brother Firestone, another well-researched, to-the-point explanation. Especially the part where he asks what planet your from. Why can't *you* form explanations like that, Ken? The majority of your statements are very similar to the ravings of lunatics that we see in the movies. >Well Mikey, it does seem that what happened years ago does affect >masonry today, unless you are saying that Dr. Firestone is in error? Doctor Brother Firestone? In error? Compared to you? Give us a break, Ken! The part of my statement you cut off *way* above there was in response to George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owning slaves. Since only Brother Washington was a Mason and since Masonry has never advocated keeping slaves, or even putting someone _into_ slavery; my response, also *way* up there, was that the _mores_ of people can change over the ages, especially in regards to evil things such as slavery. Since Masonry is not evil (except in some dim recess of your mind), there's nothing to change, now is there? Actually, one the most fascinating things about Masonry is how well it adheres to its own history and traditions. >Are we to accept your views or the doc's? I read others here >praising him for his creditability and great works...haven't really >read much good either from you or about you. Unfortunately O' Cowardly Mouse, you'll have to accept BOTH of our views! Ya see, NO ONE PERSON SPEAKS FOR MASONRY! So each Mason's view is the absolutely correct view - for that Mason! Simple, yes? Yes, I don't post as often as the good Doctor does, typically because he's beat me to the punch and there's precious little I could add to his intelligent, well-researched, succinct posts that could make them any better than they are. You should really study the way that he takes such gibberish that you spew and remakes it into a well-written expose` of your bitter, hate-filled personnna. Well done, Doc! Bravo! > > () () > \\(o o)// > --------o00-=(_)=-00o-------- > joken@wild.net I don't know Ken. The more I look at your ASCII art, the more it looks like a Gerbil. You're not advertising that you're looking for a 'felching' partner, are you? Mike -- Michael D. Stiler Sysdate Consulting Services ::internet stiler@netcom.com NRA LifeMember AMA LifeMember AOPA DAN Retreads HOG TeamOS/2 Bagpiper Master Mason 32nd degree Scottish Rite Knight Templar Shriner Sailor IronHorsemen M/C --------- Hooligans' M/C --------- SightSeers' M/C Date: 11-02-96 (19:50) Number: 562 of 576 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: tmorgen@idcomm.com, TMORGEN Subj: Re: secret Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Perferred Company Message-ID: <01bbc8f6$dc4d8b00$0dc428cf@tmorgen> Hiya kenny X-no-joken-Yes ha-ha > joken@wild.net wrote in article <55fr8t$8t2@jaguar.wild.net>... > x-no-archive: yes > > I am well aware of the kenites... > > Gee, Tedi, if you wanted to know what Bible I use, all you had to do > was ask....but then doing the sensibile thing isn't your trademark it > is? > keni, you poor ignorant fool, of course the sensible thing is to ask. But would that be 'sensible' to ask you, a heathen? You believe by your own coments that all masons are liars; why should I believe anything you say? When people accuse others as you do, there is usually a reason for it. > > My favorite Bible is the Companion Bible by Bullinger. Its text is > that of the Authorized Version of the 1611 (I also have a `copy' of > the 1611 with the letters from the editors to the King and to the > readers) as published by the Reviser in their "Parallel Bible" in > 1885. It includes facts and phenomena from the Massorah in its side > columns, it points out the significance of Numbers, it gives the > structures of the books, it has 198 appendixes that deal with a large > amount of information bearing on various quesiton raised by the > phenomena of the Sacred Text, plus many other study benefits. I use > Dr. Strong's concordance, Jay Green's interlinear Bible, > smith/goodspeed's Apocrypha, smith's bible dictionary, and the online > Bible program for my computer. These, along with many other study > tools, form my views. None of them support the joining of or worship > towards, the satanic god of masonry. > That is very interesting. Could you now tell me why you don't really read it? > > Theodore, you can come out of your hole and sign off for me, I'm > finished with this one. Excuse me Ted, Theodore is fighting with his > brothers again. He will be out to sign off the post in a minute. > He has been brainwashed but still sometimes his true nature comes out > and the "rat" in him shows. OK, here he comes now. bye Ted. > Ah, kenny here you go again....rambling. You just can't though one message without the garbage. Are you now saying you are a mason? This is not a fight, this is fun, using your own words....when it suits me. > Actually, I pulled a muscle yesterday and this is good therapy. Normally, I would have much better things than to chase after ken mitchell on a saturday morning. > Have a nice day, keni Yeah, change the spelling, thats always good for a laught too. Regards, Ted > > "MASONIC MEMBERSHIP CARD I hold in my hand a little scrap of paper 2-1/2 x 3-1/2 inches in size. It is of no intrinsic worth, not a bond, not a check or receipt for valuables, yet it is my most precious possession. It is my membership in a Masonic Lodge. It tells me that I have entered into a spiritual kinship with my fellow Masons to practice charity in word and deed; to forgive and forget the faults of my Brethren; to hush the tongues of scandal and innuendo; to care for the crippled, the hungry, and the sick, and to be fair and just to all mankind. It tells me that no matter where I may travel in the world, I am welcome to visit a place where good fellowship prevails among brothers and friends. It tells me that my loved ones, my home, and my household are under the protection of every member of this great Fraternity, who have sworn to protect and defend mine, as I have sworn to protect and defend theirs. It tells me that should I ever be overtaken by adversity or misfortune through no fault of my own, the hands of every Mason on the face of the earth will be stretched forth to assist me in my necessities. And finally it tells me that when my final exit from the stage of life has been made, there will be gathered around my lifeless body friends and Brothers who will recall to mind my virtues, though they be but few, and will forget my faults, though they be many. It tells me that and a great deal more, this little card, and makes me proud, yet humble, that I can possess this passport into a society of friends and Brothers that are numbered in the millions." (--reprinted from the Knight Templar Magazine in one of the 1995 issues of the "Trowel", the periodical of the Grand Lodge of Massachusetts, AF&AM). You leave me with the perfect rejoinder to your claim, dear writer...in the matter of your shallow and ignorant attacks upon the Masonic fraternity, please stop beating a dead horse. Date: 11-04-96 (09:09) Number: 618 of 703 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: dwwest1@ix.netcom.com, DWWEST1 Subj: Re: Question on Jurisdictional Recognition Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: (none) Message-ID: <3319a999.468905602@nntp.ix.netcom.com> On 3 Nov 1996 01:27:18 GMT, "Russell Bonchu, III" wrote: >Bro. Alan Tibbetts MPS wrote: > >> Bro. West >> I'd say you have a very idealized view of how GLs work, no offense to >> your Masonic position or accomplishments. My experience with Grand >> Lodge is that ALL decisions are made by the Bd. of General Purposes >> (Exec. Cttee.) well ahead of time, and that the delegates to GL merely >> rubber stamp those decisions by "voting" at Grand Lodge. > >I could not agree more! I have seen a particular GL (I won't name, but it >is not the one in the jurisdiction I am residing in) of which all delegates >(all Past Masters) tend to vote which ever way pleases the GM. I believe >this happens for two reasons. First, the PM's do not have the gumption to >pull together before hand and make their own decissions, and second, the >current GM tends to pull the dues card of anyone who opposes him. This >second point is particularly sad, since politics has no place in our gentle >Craft. > >Russell Bonchu, III Brother Bonchu, I know with 51 Grand Jurisdiction there are certainly going to be significant differences in the way they operate. I spoke only of what happens in my own Grand Jurisdiction. I can tell you though that nothing along the line of what you have spoke of happens at our Grand Lodge sessions. I can remember a time, though it was quite a few years ago that voting on most legislation was a formality since there was usually little opposition. But those days have long since gone. So has the time when a Brother was hesitant about speaking out on the floor of GL when he didn't like a piece of legislation. We now have open and "No holds barred" discussions and the Craft *will* vote down anything they don't like...regardless of who proposed it. for example: It was only a few years ago that the sitting Grand Master submitted at GL, twelve of his own recommendations for various changes in the Fraternity...The Craft refused him on every single one of them. The representatives of the Lodges are well informed when they get to GL. Each Lodge get a copy of all proposed legislation in addition, if there are matters that are particularly sensitive or controversial such as per capita increases, assessments or major budget changes a special committee is formed by the GM to go to each district before GL and brief the representatives of the Lodges on the details. We have learned that a well informed Grand Lodge is an effective and efficient body and serves the Craft well. The Particular Lodges (we have about three hundred twenty five in our jurisdiction) get along exceptionally well among themselves, and with the Grand Lodge officers. The Craft knows its rights, privileges and responsibilities, as do the Grand Lodge officers...There is harmony among the Craft and Brotherly love prevails. Fraternally, Donald W. West, PDDGM Date: 11-04-96 (18:41) Number: 622 of 703 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Freemasonry - The secret revealed at last Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <55ldcu$jau@news2.cais.com> >Everything I say can be proved by doing a lot of reading in the right places. Well, since almost anything can be printed, whether true or not, I question whether reading is the right way to "prove" anything. For example, I remind you that up until the time of Galileo one could read in the books of science as they were then known that heavier objects fell faster than light ones. A little reasoning or experiment (and Galileo never really dropped objects off the Tower at Pisa) would have shown that such an idea was false. Believing _everything_ you read is pretty foolish. One can also _dis_prove everything you assert by "reading in the right places." It might make a lot more sense to look at how one decides whom to believe in contradictory situations. >Sounds like what was told JESUS! >Apostate Jews and Masonic Romans were out to shut His mouth; There were no Masons in Roman times. Jews who become apostates are no longer Jews. (If you cease to believe, you are no longer a believer.) The Romans persecuted those of any religion other than their own. Jesus was a good target for that because he was outspoken. Of course, Jesus was Jewish, and the Jews had been targets of Roman persecution for a long time. Only a few decades after Jesus was crucified, the Romans laid siege to Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple. For centuries afterwards, they persecuted the Jews. >He had nowhere to lay his head.; >He had to sleep in a garden with 12 GUARDSMEN APOSTLES; Has nothing to do with Freemasonry. >The Devil, just like Masons, comes to kill, steal and destroy! Whom have Masons killed, stolen from, or destroyed? OTOH, the history of the world is replete with deaths caused by religious fanatics. We can look at the early Christian martyrs, the persecutions of the Anabaptists and Huguenots, the burnings of Giordano Bruno and Jan Hus and Jeanne d'Arc, the Salem witch trials, and on and on. And I have mentioned mostly persecutions of Christians by other Christians. Beyond that, we could look into the Crusades (whole villages of men, women, and children burned alive), the Inquisition, the Thirty Years' War, the English civil wars of the 17th century, and a few others. And I am _still_ only looking at Christians. There's plenty of guilt to go around for other groups, too. So compared with this record, how many and who are dead at the hands of the Masons, acting as Masons. Besides the false story of the death of William Morgan, who died of old age in another country, whom, I ask again, have the Masons killed? >The Masons KILLED kennedy. Oh? Lee Harvey Oswald was not a Mason. Neither was Sirhan Sirhan, in case you mean the _other_ Kennedy. And in terms of the third Kennedy, it seems that Teddy was more the perpetrator than victim in the one case of homicide (by negligence, at least) with which he was associated. I know of no association between the Kopechnes and Freemasonry. Produce some hard evidence, evidence that will stand up in a court of law, regarding any Masonic involvement in the assassination of John or Robert Kennedy. Suggestions that Masons served on the Warren Commission and must have covered up the evidence are not evidence. >The Masons STEAL your money and soul. We must not be very good thieves, since otherwise, we wouldn't be running a lot of fund-raising breakfasts to help paint Lodge buildings and repave parking lots. It's not stealing to serve pancakes and bacon for $3, is it? (Otherwise, MacDonald's is in trouble, too.) I'm not sure how you go about stealing souls. Where would we keep them? Since each of us already has one, I'm not sure what we'd do with any extras, anyway. >The Masons DESTROY truth and give us meaningless symbolic babelings! I'm afraid that it is _you_ who engage in babbling (note the correct spelling). Symbols are only meaningless to those without the wit to understand them. (Does that make your ears redden?) And I'm not sure how truth can be "destroy[ed]" by anyone, not just Masons. What is it that we do that is worse than the obvious lies and slanders you propagate? Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 11-04-96 (13:52) Number: 623 of 703 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: pedrotti@aol.com, PEDROTTI Subj: Re: Gullible Gus Elbert Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Message-ID: <55le1h$7rv@newsbf02.news.aol.com> In article <327C3101.2985@earthlink.net>, The Prophet writes: >What is exactlly TAUGHT in the Masonic DEGREES? List them, and I'll find them to be Evil in some way. Hi, Pluto, I am constantly amazed at how transparent anti-Masons can be when they launch their tirades. This one line of yours demonstrates better than any statement by Masons that you are a determined fool. By your own admission, you do not know (with any accuracy) what lessons are taught in Masonic Degrees, yet you are sure a priori that you can twist them to seem evil. I'm sure you can prove to yourself that the Cross of Jesus is a subtle emblem of the devil, given the quality of the ranting in your post. That's about you, not about Jesus. Have you tried either Prozac or ExLax? Have you even tried Christianity? Peter Pedrotti, PM, WM Oakland, CA USA Date: 11-04-96 (18:56) Number: 624 of 703 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Mormon Joe Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <55le9k$jia@news2.cais.com> >Okay, Ted, tell us what your church & masonry has to say about the >origin of the Black race. Well, when did the Black race >start..according to your church...and according to masonry? I can't speak for Bro. Ted's church, but the traditional Jewish belief was that the various races sprang from Noah's three sons: the Hamitic peoples of Africa (blacks) from Ham, the Semitic peoples (specifically the Hebrews) from Shem, and the Canaanites from Japheth. Of course, most modern Jews subscribe to modern theories of anthropology and evolutionary change regarding African origin of mankind and skin color change to adapt to varying levels of sunlight in different latitudes (primarily to stabilize the blood levels of vitamin D between too little, causing rickets, and too much, causing toxicity, since vit. D is made in the skin by exposure to sunlight, mostly UV). I don't know of _any_ Masonic doctrine regarding the origin of races. I do know that Albert Pike tended to consider the term "Aryan" as designating race, rather than merely a linguistic grouping, but as he used it, it clearly can be identified with the more modern term "Caucasian," and not as referring to some blond, blue-eyed subgroup of the Caucasian race as Hitler and the Nazi propagandists used the term. Race, despite what _you_ think about "white lodges" and "kluckers," is simply not mentioned in Masonic ritual or Constitution. BTW, since Masonry requires religious toleration, and since KKK members are notoriously intolerant not only of blacks but also of Jews, Muslims, and other non-Christians, it is unquestionable that KKK members would be not only unwelcome in Masonry, but also uncomfortable there. Since many KKK members claim to be church-going Christians, I wouldn't wonder that you would know many more of them than I do, being Jewish and a Freemason. But since they wear hoods and conceal their membership (while Masons wear aprons at meetings and advertise their membership openly with jewelry), you probably don't know which of your friends is a Grand Wizard or Kleagle or some such. Of course, the facts have never dissuaded you from raving about something before, so I suppose you will continue to post this fiction about "kluckers" in Masonry. But it only marks you as a dumb "kluck" for doing so. x-no-joken: yes Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH l Date: 11-04-96 (20:54) Number: 626 of 703 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: The Royal Secret of Albert Pike. Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <55ll6l$lir@news2.cais.com> Our Mr. Plutonium has been insisting that the last paragraph or so of M&D should be taken at clear face value. Anyone who has read any of the rest of the book would give that notion a hearty horselaugh. Pike was far more interested in symbolism, obscure philosophical truths, and the combination of the words of many thinkers together than he was in stating bald, simple truths. If Pike said that the Royal Secret was "XYZ" you can be sure that he was stating merely something which concealed a greater truth. For Pike makes clear in another ritual (that of the KCCH Investiture, which may be attended by non-Masons), that the Royal Secret is a _true_ secret, which each man must discover for himself. I believe I know what it is, but I recognize that I _cannot_ tell anyone else. Not "should not" or "must not" but _can_ not, because the Royal Secret must be discovered by each individual or it will not be accepted. Pike's "equilibrium" only hints at the truth, and in such a way as to mislead those of evil intention (as we have seen) and to encourage those of good will to seek to discover more. As I told the class on Saturday night of Inspectors Inquisitor (31) about to receive the degree of Master of the Royal Secret: "All of you will leave here wondering what the Royal Secret is and feeling that you have not been told what you came for. Yet each one of you _knows_ the Royal Secret, for there is nothing in the Scottish Rite that is not contained in the Blue Lodge. Further, there is nothing in the way of morality in the Lodge that you were not previously taught in Sunday school or at (sometimes over!) your mother's knee. But you do not yet _know_ that you know the Royal Secret. And when you truly know what it is and can then put it into _practice_, you will find that it can give you moments of the greatest happiness known to man on this earth." Those of us who know the Secret know its power when we have occasionally been able to use it. I wish I were _truly_ a Master of the Royal Secret, not merely one acquainted with it, so that I could use it more, but I am only human, and mastering the Secret is the task of a lifetime or more. Yet it is within the grasp of any who would try, and the way is pointed out by the many Masonic degrees. For those who want a hint, consider Pike's statement about equilibrium and the creation of a world with both good and evil: Perhaps it is that God created a world with evil in it so that men who are good can work against that evil. We are not puppets, nor children ignorant of the moral issues that face mankind. We are adults who, by our actions, must show that we are worthy of the spark of divinity placed within us. Some bury that spark under tons of sludge. Others feed it with deeds of lovingkindness (gemilut hasidim) and it burns so bright that evil must flee its presence. THAT is the _true_ Masonic light. Where it shines, none can stumble. Where it shines, men are free. Where it shines, the Word of God is heard clearly. Wherever that light shines, _there is the Lodge_. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 11-05-96 (14:03) Number: 658 of 703 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Albert Pike's burial spot Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <55nhfr$bpq@news2.cais.com> In article <327E97E5.31E@earthlink.net>, wrote: >Roger Ingersoll wrote: >> > >> you claim your final authority is the KJV of the Bible. You >> also have related Lucifer with Satan. Please give me chapter and verse >> where the KJV of the Bible says Lucifer is Satan. >> > > >You play a wonderful Pharisee with your trick question. Who do you say >Lucifer is? Let's watch those anti-Semitic remarks about Pharisees, first of all. Secondly, "Lucifer" is the name given by the Romans to the planet Venus when it rose in the morning before the sun. The word was mistakenly preserved unchanged in the early English translations of the Bible, when they used the Vulgate as a source, rather than going to the Hebrew original. The word only appears in a passage of Isaiah, where it is used as a metaphor for the wicked King of Babylon's arrogance, he thinking himself as exalted as a celestial body, but soon to fall from power. The Hebrew word, "heyleyl," was translated into Greek in the Septuagint as "Phosphorus," the word the Greeks used for the planet Venus in the morning, and thence to the Roman word. The better translation into English would have rendered the word "morning star." In Christian mythology, the Biblical reference to the fall of the King of Babylon, associated with the erroneous translation of the word as "Lucifer," and confounded with the Graeco-Roman myth of the fall of Hephaestus/Vulcan from Mt. Olympus (the abode of the gods) to the underworld became the legend of a fallen angel ruling the underworld, or Hell, having had the name "Lucifer" but being known as "Satan" thereafter, in accord with a name used elsewhere in the Jewish Scriptures, but incorrectly interpreted by the Christians as the Adversary of God, whereas in Jewish tradition, Satan was the adversary of mankind in the heavenly court deciding the future of humanity. In early modern times, the writers Marlowe and Milton popularized the name "Lucifer" in their works (Dr. Faustus and Paradise Lost, respectively), from which the popular mind derives most of its notions about the name. So that's the answer to the "trick" question. It's not a trick. It has a cleaar and meaningful answer. It's just too bad that so much ignorance and superstition are abroad in the world. And it's too bad that few Christians realize that the charge to "cast out demons" does not mean that demons exist and are to be exorcised, but that it is the _belief in demons_ that must be cast out, in favor of realizing that the individual is responsible for his own behavior--"the devil made me do it" is no longer an acceptable answer in modern times. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 11-05-96 (14:28) Number: 659 of 703 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Who likes Pike? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <55niup$c59@news2.cais.com> In article <327ECD10.1A3E@earthlink.net>, wrote: >Dr. Roger M. Firestone wrote: > >> >> Pike had his flaws (a poor knowledge of how to pronounce Hebrew, among >> others) and is about a hundred years out of date when he addresses >> scientific topics and was perhaps too absorbed in the Kabbalah, but he >> was still a genius and had much to tell us > >Where was Pike off base in regards to scientific topics? He made certain comments in the degrees about phenomena such as electricity, light, and so on which are no longer consonant with our scientific understanding of more than a century later. When Pike wrote, Maxwell's equations were still new, radioactivity and quantum theory and relativity were well into the future, and much other scientific knowledge we now take for granted was still being worked out. The details of what he wrote are in the ritual and cannot be discussed here. BTW, please note that I said he was "out of date," not "off base" as you have put it. OTOH, Pike's contention was that the sciences are valuable even to moral philosophers and theologians because, as God created the Universe, so the study of the Universe reveals much about Him, and that is still true today. The marvelous construction of our physical world and its ingenious laws say far more about the wisdom of our Creator than any literal reading of Genesis 1 possibly could. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 11-05-96 (12:21) Number: 663 of 703 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: dkellogg@student.champlain.edu, DAVE KELLOGG Subj: Re: Dad's Ring Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Champlain College Message-ID: <327FA1C6.7AF7@student.champlain.edu> joken@wild.net wrote: > > x-no-archive: yes > > rfire@cais.cais.com (Dr. Roger M. Firestone) wrote: > > > >separabit," along with the date of his receipt of the degree. The motto > >translated is "what virtue has joined, death cannot part." > > get the great educator of mASSonry to explain the motto and then look > for the definition displayed in this newsgroup....but don't hold your > breath. > > > > >Masonry does a number of good things, but it is not really > >capable of helping those with serious substance abuse problems. AA is > > get him to list the "good things". he'll play the old song about the > hospital but then get him to list the numbers of massons in existence, > the numbers of dollars that go to the hospital and then do a little > simple math and see how much comes out of the pockets of the massons > and goes towards that work. then compare how much they spend on > entertainment......but then first you have to get them to post some > cold hard facts...good luck. > > >better at that; it does not, OTOH, do the other things that Masonry > >does. (Hey, if you want to play golf, joining a bowling league won't > >help you, either.) BTW, the obligations of a Lodge to an EA are not > >quite the same as to a MM. But I can assure you that a Master Mason who > >has an alcohol problem will be helped by his Lodge to join AA or other > >treatment program at most; the Lodge is not going to be able to cure > > as an e.a. you were almost good enough it seems. or it is their ole > line about once a masson always a masson is what forces them to help a > mm. until you have been thru the steps or massonry and indoctrinated > into their beliefs you are just 'nothing' to be cast away. do a study > of the signs of a cult and then see how massonry fits right in. > > >him, and it sure isn't going to facilitate his addiction if they can > >help it. A Master Mason who doesn't deal with his alcohol problem is > >going to find himself suspended or expelled, just as you were held up > >from further degree progress. > > unless one of the other bubba's complain, nothing will be done. and > they are brainwashed into not talking about other bubba's "errors" and > seldom will one masson report another. sure the great one will give > you a couple of token examples but that is just like the token > non-whites they allow in just so they can make the claim that they > aren't a racist bunch when in fact other massons in the newsgroup say > different. > > > > >BTW, pay no attention to the juvenile ravings of "joken." He is not > >only ignorant of Freemasonry, he exposes his immaturity with every one > >of his puerile postings. He has been exposed as a bigot and a liar many > >times, but it does not dissuade him; he is always looking for newcomers > >to deceive. We had a few weeks' respite from his rants, but it appears > >that he has convinced the doctors to let him out in public again... > > OK don't pay any attention to me BUT pay attention to the massons in > the newsgroup. one masson will say in no uncertain terms that > massonry does not solicit for membership and up pops another masson > that says that it does. pay attention to those guys and they will > make clear that massonry is confused. Oh by the way, it was the good > doc that a bubba said needed a vacation and was cracked. I've been > here all along but if you will review the recents posts the great > brotherly love guys have been stabbing each other in the back so bad > that i just sat out and watched the fun. plus i wanted to give the > doc and the other gangersters and other thugs untied a chance to > gather their wits. looks like they didn't have much to gather. > > Just In Joken > > >Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH > >Master, Dawson Lodge #16, FAAM of DC > > joken@wild.net > http://www.wild.net/~joken Joken Why don't you post the facts. You seem to know everything else. I can't believe the unmittigated gaul you have to insult the Shriner's and the hospitals that they raise money for. I can honestly say that they contribute more to the well being of children with burns and physical impairments than you do. When was the last time you took time to raise money for a worthy cause? Oh, I forgot, your on a quest to wage a holy war against the masons all in the name of God. I can't say this enough: you are a petty, bitter little man. It astounds me. I don't know how someone of your limited intellect can have such a large oral cavity. I think that if you were to put as much effort into doing some meanigful work;as you do into running your mouth, you might get more respect from people. I know I pledged not to respond to you anymore, but when you start attacking the worthy causes that masons devote their time to, I feel that I must respond. I wish you would get down off your cross and start responding to the issues that you raise. Where do you get your information? Why, when masons respond to you in a civil manner, do you so viciously attack them? I really don't understand this nonsense that you spout. I will be eagerly awaiting you reply to this Joken, I'm sure that you will have some choice words for me, that will have some insight to this ongoing debate. So until then, fare thee well. Dave Kellogg Patriot Lodge No.33 F.&A.M. Hinesburg, Vermont Date: 11-06-96 (04:27) Number: 685 of 703 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jwintermute@ids2.idsonline.com, JANET & JOHN WINTERMUTE Subj: Donating to the Va. Masonic Home via CFC Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <55p4oc$2jt@news2.cais.com> Listers, this post is addressed to Federal Government employees living in Virginia or Washington, DC, who may wish to support the Masonic Home of Virginia through the auspices of the Combined Federal Campaign this fall. I was tooling through the catalog of giving for CFC (the list of all nonprofit agencies precleared to receive dedicated donations) in the National Capital area and stumbled across an entry for the Masonic Home of Va. If you are intending to donate to CFC (the annual campaign has just begun nationwide), and are specifically living in or around D.C., you may want to list on your pledge card Fund #7623 to earmark all or part of your donation to that cause. Feds living elsewhere in Virginia should consult their locally produced list of CFC charity recipients; I can't guarantee that 7623 is the right number statewide. The list of possible charities is 133 pages long this year, with all entries single spaced in 3 columns/page. I didn't find any others with a masonic connection. For more info on the Masonic Home of Virginia, the catalog invites calls to (804) 222-1694. CFC rules require that each charity's books be audited to make sure that the percentage of income spent on fundraising stays below 25 percent. (A few exceptions are made, chiefly for newly founded charities where startup costs mandate heavy-duty fundraising efforts exceeding that percentage of gross income.) You might be interested to know that the Masonic Home of Va. spends only 7.5 percent of its income on fundraising. Masonically connected Federal employees living elsewhere may want to investigate geting their state's Masonic Home cleared by CFC to receive dedicated donations. The requirements entail proving an organization is IRS chartered as a nonprofit (503-C status?) and opening the books to CFC so that the fundraising percentage can be calculated and/or verified as described above. --Janet Wintermute Date: 11-07-96 (04:32) Number: 714 of 739 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: yagayagaya@aol.com, YAGAYAGAYA Subj: Edson Fitch-"A Match for his Time" Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Message-ID: <55sab6$ljj@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Edson Fitch-"A Match for His Time" Distributed freely by the Masonic Forum on America Online Torence Evans Ake WPM Arcadia Lodge #1138 Lansing Illinois...now residing in Reading PA...please send your comments via e-mail to Yagayagaya@aol.com Information from The Knight templar puiblished monthly as an official publication of the Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United States of America Volume XXXIX Number 1 January 1993 Editor 5097 N. Elston Ave. Suite 101 Chicago Illinois 60630-2460 (312)777-3300. S.K. James R. Case KTCH "He was the only American Citizen, retaining his allegiance as such, who ever occupied the Grand East of Masonry in a Brittish Possession." Edson Fitch was born in Glens Falls New York in 1838, his ancestry included an early Governor of the State of Conneticutt; and, during this initial period, he lived a normal and moderately supported life. As was expected at the time, he was formally edu- cated and soon prepared himself to enter business life. Like many of his generation, however, any plans that were laid were immediately disrupted by the War between the States.On November 1st, 1861, Edson Fitch was mustered into the army at Bolton Landing in the 43rd New York Volunteer Infantry. He was a Lieutenant in the "Washington County Regiment." Before he was to see battle, however, he was made a Mason in Senate Lodge #456 at Glen Falls and was raised July 6,1862 while he visited his home on leave. He led the company first into action during the Pennsylvannia Campaigns, promoted Captain by the end of 1863 and was wounded in the head during fighting in the wilderness. After he recooperated, he returned to duty and was given responsible staff assignments until his discharge. After the war, Brother Fitch, like many Americans, welcomed the opportunity to return to more peaceful persuits and commenced making his way, in the American fashion, through the world. Like any smart business man, he looked for ways to exploit the new technologies which the late war had developed and use the resources at hand for building a better existance for his fellow man. The household friction match had recently been greatly improved and Bro. Fitch saw a demand for its many uses. In 1867 he went to Canada to take advantage of raw materials to be found there and began producing "matches by the million". Edson Fitch made his mark as a pioneer in the "splint industry." Every pipe smoking "habitant" in Canada welcomed the development of the friction match, as a means of keeping "his continual and comforting companion conveniently lit." Twice, Brother Fitch saw his factory destroyed by fire, but his "indomitable pluck and perseverance" enabled him to grow his operation until it was the largest such establishment in the world. He employed 500 persons in all departments, used no less than seventy million feet of lumber in a single year and at one point produced 90 million matches in a single day. Edson Fitch was also a lover of open spaces and took the radical action at the time of supporting fish and game conservation. During his lifetime, he kept his benevolent activities private, recognizing that his good works were their own reward. As he established himself more firmly in business and banking circles, he became director of the Quebec and Levis Ferry Company in Quebec City and was for several years President of the Masonic Hall Association. In 1873, he affiliated with Tuscan Lodge #28, in Levis, serving as Master in 1876. As District Deputy his service was continuous and required involvement on several committees. Yet, in this time of travel on poor roads and waterways, he was able to progress through the various stations until his election as Grand Master. His many quiet acts of charity bacame public knowledge afer his death at the age of sixty-two. He had no children. "A lover of truth and honor...one who hated falsehood and deceit ...loyal to his friends...exemplary in his daily life and conduct... one who manifested by his deeds those truly Masonic ornaments of Brotherhood and Benevolence"---the whole city grieved to see him go. Date: 11-13-96 (05:00) Number: 1134 of 1248 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais2.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: 33rd Degree Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <56bkm4$5jq@news2.cais.com> A correction or two: Scripture is indeed read in Lodge, but most of it is from the Hebrew Scriptures ("Old Testament") and so is unlikely to contain the name of Jesus to be skipped over. A few passages from the Christian Scriptures do appear, but they are not passages that contain the name of Jesus, either. One prominent one begins "Now abideth these three, faith, hope, and charity..." Bodies of the York Rite do use more material from the Christian Scriptures, but only the Commandery mentions Jesus. Remembering that the historical events on which the rituals of the Lodge, Chapter, and Council are based date from 500 to 1000 years prior to the Christian Era, the name of Jesus just isn't going to come up. The degrees of the Scottish Rite do indeed mention the name of Jesus, particularly in the 17th, 18th, and 26th degrees. Let's keep all of our facts straight. Also, the 33rd degree is being conferred in Lisner Auditorium in Washington, DC, on the campus of George Washington University, not at the House of the Temple, these days. And that is only for those elected to receive the degree from the East Coast area. There are degree teams for other parts of the country that confer the degree, which is normally done only every other year, after the Supreme Council biennial meeting at which new Inspectors General (Hon.) are elected. About such other details as the ceremony of the 33rd degree or of the Shrine ceremonial, I cannot speak, being neither a 33rd degree Masonr nor a Shriner. But I sure wouldn't trust joken as a source. Finally, referring to Allah as a "pagan god" is essentially incorrect. Allah is nothing more than the Arabic equivalent of the Hebrew word "el" (as in "El Shaddai"--a term even Christians use). To say that Muslims worship some pagan god because they traditionally use an Arabic word makes no more sense than calling Russian Orthodox worshippers pagan because they refer to God as "Bog" in the Russian language. The pagans worshipped idols or worshipped petty and human-like gods of a pantheon. The object of Muslim worship fits none of these characterizations. Does joken also suggest that Jews are pagan because they worship God under the name of Elohim and Adonai? Well, I suppose he might; he's already been exposed as an anti-semite. That's joken for you--equal opportunity hatred. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH To: ALL From: rfire@cais2.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: On the nature of Lodges Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <56bml8$6k3@news2.cais.com> Most Lodges around here don't allow smoking in the Lodge hall at all--and this is a tobacco-growing state. One or two do. I don't know of any Lodge around here with a TV set in the Lodge hall. Liquor is forbidden in any Lodge building with which I am familiar; one or two have a dispensation to serve wine with a festive board following a meeting. I don't know where you were, but it doesn't sound like most Lodges I've been to. I'm afraid that you will hear a ribald joke just about anywhere men gather--I've heard ministers tell them. But your experience is not typical of my knowledge of Freemasonry. To be sure, I have familiarity only with urban/suburban Lodges; the character of Masonry in really small towns and rural areas is foreign to me. I'll admit, I find vegetarians a little odd myself; I have difficulty sharing mealtimes with them. I'm sorry you had a bad experience; there are other Lodges for you to seek out, and I assure you that other ones will be different. If you have been reading here for awhile, you would have seen advice to visit more than one Lodge until you find one with which you fit in before choosing where to petition. There are 33 Lodges in Washington, DC, and they are of vastly different characters--some large, some small, some composed of older men, some of younger, some don't even work in the English language, some focus on research more than on social activities, etc. Masonry is not one single Lodge or one single experience. BTW, believe nothing written by "plutonium" or "joken"--and only part of what the rest of us say, since we all mix in opinion with fact at times. If you read carefully, you will soon learn who is to be trusted and who is deranged. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 11-13-96 (07:49) Number: 1298 of 1380 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: fowlerrw@pinkinc.com, R W FOWLER Subj: Re: On the nature of Lodges Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Message-ID: <3289c3f1.pktn@pinkinc.com> Organization: Let's see...it's here somewhere. What you describe will be very much dependent on which individual lodge you go to. There will always be some smokers in a lodge, and hopefully they will not be obnoxious about it, just as there will be some smokers in any group of people, and we all hope they will not be obnoxious. At my lodge, we probably have four or five who smoke. They may go outside to smoke. I know that we have a couple of staunch anti-smokers, and what seems to happen when these brethren are around is that the smokers will not smoke in their presence. Nobody wants to be offensive. There is no smoking during the lodge meetings, though it is acceptable before or afterward. I am surprised to see "drinking" listed. That would not happen in a lodge under the Grand Lodge of Ohio. Alcoholic beverages are not permitted in lodges here at any time at all. In fact, Grand Lodge just rejected a proposal which would have allowed alcohol to be served at non-Masonic meetings held in buildings. As it stands now, if a wedding party or other gathering wishes to use the building for a reception, it is perfectly acceptable, but they may not bring in any alcoholic beverages under any circumstances. My lodge does not have a television set in it. I think I have only seen one lodge building with a television set in it, and that was hooked to a video tape player, not to an antenna. Ohio has a video tape recording which new brethren watch, which does a wonderful job of describing Masonry to families and friends of new Masons. I've heard few bigoted jokes in the time I've been a Mason. People will occasionally tell jokes, but they are far and away not hurtful kinds of jokes. I have told jokes on myself from time to time. (I mean, what could be fouler than Fowler?! :-) Most of the time, though, the jokes are about things that concern the brethren. Frequently, we do get jokes about the weather and other similar topics. I suppose that if one were a weatherman, he might justifiably claim he was the brunt of some unkind jokes. Politicians have been the brunt of jokes, too, but everyone has taken these with good humor and tried to be respectful toward the opinions of others. I happen to be fairly conservative, politically speaking, and must say that the liberals have been very creative in creating jokes about Dole and Kemp prior to the recent election. Now, if only the conservatives had been as creative at their political jokes before the election... :-) Every so often somebody will remark about something a relative did or did not do, or recount some incident that happened recently in some other part of his life. I think that is normal human behavior. It happens at work and other places on a regular basis. I do not hold that against anyone, but look at it as part of the interaction that occurs when people who know each other meet. And, most of the time it is of interest to me, as I consider these fellows to be my brothers, and I like knowing what is going on in their lives. I can think of one fellow who was struggling with a very unpleasant divorce, and who frequently came to lodge meetings needing to talk with a sympathetic soul about all the problems that were occurring. Many of us listened to his tales of woe and, I hope, gave him encouragement and support. I think I know one brother Mason who is a vegetarian, and it does not make any difference to me whether he eats meat or not. I do know several who do not drink caffeinated beverages, and a couple who cannot eat nuts, and several who must restrict their salt or sugar intake, etc. In today's world, dietary restrictions are very common, whether they are self-imposed or medically necessary. I would certainly hope that no one in my lodge would look at another as though he were from outer space, just on account of what he was or was not eating. You may not find anything clearly identifiable as spiritual in the gathering before or after any particular lodge meeting. Sometimes lodge meetings are pretty dry affairs. But please do not let that stop you from seeking your spirituality. I tend to think that spirituality develops little by little, and not all in one big chunk. If you learn patience, spirituality may follow while you are not looking for it. I do not think that I consciously increase in spirituality by going out and looking for it. But it adds up, a small thought here and a small act there. I can say that I have had very interesting and informative discussions with brethren over a wide range of topics, such as on the customs and workings of the lodge, the history of Freemasonry, how to really discover its secrets, the history of Lockbourne and of the Ohio and Erie Canal, cleaning up roadsides, blood drives, hospital volunteering, getting volunteers in general, firearms, woodworking, photography, gospel hymns and other favorite music, pipe organs in lodges and churches, trips to exotic places, raising corn, raising cattle, making railroad equipment, operations on the Chessie System (a railroad), the US Postal Service, heating with wood stoves, growing herbs and spices, radio, making television tubes, automobiles, operation of auto parts stores, old farm equipment and how it used to be used, digging water wells, traction steam engines, astronomy, and many others. These are just a few that come to mind as I type. I have been very favorably impressed with the wide variety of topics on which brethren are conversant. Some people open up and talk more than others, but I can safely say that just about everyone has something interesting to say at one time or another. It seems to be a matter of being at the right place at the right time. And, lest I forget, I find the ritual to be a wonderful means of focusing my thoughts. There is something about it that is hard to describe which is very satisfying, and to which I look forward. So, in summary, if you did not find what you were seeking at one lodge, you might want to see if you can find another. Thanks for stating what you found when you went to a lodge. By the way, I would be interested to know where you are. I am glad to learn that you have developed an interest in Masonry. Best wishes as you search, and may you find what you desire! When you visit other lodges, I would be interested to read what you find there. -- R W Fowler Lockbourne Lodge #232 F&AM, Lockbourne OH On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, "Robert Olivier" wrote: > I recently got very interested in freemasonry - I was > attracted to the whole concept of becoming a better person > through ritual and somehow helping to improve the world. > So I decided that I'd visit my local lodge and possibly > try to join. > There was a lot of cigarette smoking, drinking, TV watching, > etc. People were making bigoted jokes and ragging on their > wives/girlfriends. Almost an "old boys" kind of scene. > I'm really very uncomfortable in settings like that. > I was hoping to find something a bit more, I don't > know, "spiritual" I guess. Date: 11-15-96 (17:40) Number: 1341 of 1380 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Danny Sale's epic Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <56i9tk$fpj@news2.cais.com> Actually, Jews do not recognize Jesus as a prophet, but Muslims do. As a Freemason, I might make the finer distinction that I would consider Jesus to be a prophet _to the Christians_ and Mohammed a prophet _to the Muslims_. I would consider the Great Gurus to be the prophets of the Sikh religion, as well. As these religions do not accept the authority of an Akiba, a Rashi, or a Hillel, as I do, by the same token, I need not accept for my own conduct that which is peculiar to their religion. But Masonry teaches us that there are certain lessons of the moral law which are binding on all, and I have no doubt that there is but one God who has spoken to those who profess all true faiths--Jews, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, and so on. The evidence is that we all have some truths in common, and those truths are the ones that Masonry seeks to inculcate, while at the same time encouraging each Mason to be a more fervent practitioner of his own faith. To those who say "my religion is the only true religion, all others are false and their adherents my enemies," it's a free country, and you may think as you like. But we too have the freedom to ask you not to bother us. The belief that "God has commanded us to punish the unbelievers" may be turned against you by some other group that considers _you_ to be the infidels. And so millions have died in the course of history, without the issue being closer to settlement than it was millenia ago. It is this sad history of human conflict over what should be a law of love that commends to Freemasonry its insistence on toleration as an essential landmark of the Order. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 11-14-96 (20:28) Number: 1486 of 1507 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: wss@intac.com (Reply-To: wss@nile.intac.com), WOLF SHIPON Subj: Re: Grande Orient Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Intac Access Corporation - An Internet Service Provider Message-ID: <56ggv6$4er@nile.intac.com> Reply-To: wss@nile.intac.com (Harmonizing with the computers and telephones at INTAC's NOC,201-944-1417 ext. 203,Might as well be 201-944-1417 ext. 203 Wolf S hipon) Bretheren, I would like to add that Freemasonry has a tendency to inspire men to achieve more. Here's my reasoning. At least once per month, Masons -- men committed to their careers, their families, their good works, or whatever else is important to good men -- meet one another. Instead of telling stories to other men about failures and misfortune, these men have an incentive (a formal meeting with men who are historically achievers) to succeed in endeavors that are worthy of public scrutiny in a democratic, freedom-loving nation. Thus, men who are Masons can reasonably be expected to populate careers that are noteworthy. I know when I go to a meeting, I want to be able to talk about something positive like good things happening to my family or continuing my education. I'm not sure I would be able to do that as easily if I didn't have the kind of role models I've found in my bretheren at my lodge, Columbia No. 91 in Philadelphia. And that's all I have to say. Wolf Shipon, 23 >>3) As I see about 30% of the US president and many judges of the US >supreme court have been masons. As masons do not constitute the 30% of >the US population I have the feeling that masonry somehow likes (liked >?) to take it's members from the elite. Is that true ? How do they >select ? > >Masonic Lodges do not select their members by recruitment, new members >choose to petition a Lodge. Men who wish to serve society and their >fellow-men are more likely to choose to become Masons and more likely to >rise to positions of power and responsibility than average. You will >find, if you study their biographies, that most of the men you >mention--Presidents, justices of the Supreme Court, Federal judges at >all levels, senators, congressmen, and so on--became Masons long before >they ever held such offices. Masonry and its lessons of charity, >brotherhood, fellowship, service to others, and so on came first. (It's >like observing that most college professors are PhDs; colleges do not >grant the PhD only to professors--getting the PhD came first.) OK? > >Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 11-18-96 (19:16) Number: 1495 of 1507 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Enemies ? Why ? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <56qcmf$e35@news2.cais.com> Masonry does not oppose the Catholic Church (or any religious group, per se), but it _does_ believe that no spiritual organization, like the Church, ought to have temporal power as well. We as Masons do not believe that it is possible for any organization composed of men to be invested with the powers of Deity and to be able to proclaim the absolute truth, as well as to punish those who dare to believe otherwise. The Church had such powers during the Dark Ages, and its abuses of such power are recorded history. So long as any person is free to join or to leave whatever religious faith or institution he chooses without fear of persecution, Masonry has no business dictating what institutions shall exist or what they shall believe. In most ways, the Catholic Church has been a great force for good in the world, caring for the unfortunate, teaching men about their Great Creator, encouraging moral behavior, and promoting knowledge. Masons admire it for these actions. But its hierarchs of earlier times were in many cases corrupt (the Popes in the time of the Medicis, as well as Clement V) and tyrannical. And that, we as Freemasons oppose, as should good Catholics--and as did Martin Luther, and the other founders of the Reformation. If you denounce Freemasonry for its attitude toward a Church of the earlier times, then you must also denounce all of Protestantism, as well, and by the same logic. I'm sure you do not. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH old charges part 5 The 'Tractus Urbanitatis' which follows this provides intruction in social behaviour. 2EMM says 'there is evidence to suggest that masons might benefit greatly from such ir struction' but it has no masonic import. It also closes with the couplet 'Amen Amen, so mote it be, So say we all for charity'. These three poems, all written by Augustinian canons, and the information given about the function of the canons, show clearly that some of the minor clergy in the latter half of the fourteenth century were concerned to free the church from the state described in Moorman's History of the Church in England in the Thirteenth Century when the learning and piety of both clergy and laity were at a low ebb. This led me to try to ascertain whether any of the higher clergy were also writing reforming poems, in the hope that light. might be thrown on the reason for Regius MS. being versified. I found from The Dictionary of National Biography that the Archbishop of York, Robert de Thoresby, issued in Latin to his Convocation in 1357 a directive of which the title translated into English was Instruction and Lay Folks Catechism. The approval given to this by Convocation would percolate through to the parishes and priories. There are editions of this also, with English translations, in E.E.T.S. collections. One of them, No. 118 in the Original Series, contains the following: Thorseby was evidently anxious that his catechism should be as widely disseminated as possible ... and he told his clerk, John de Taystek, to cast a translation of it into the form of English verse (unpoetical though it may be), the more easily to be committed to memory. As Prior of Lilleshall Abbey, John Mirk would have known about Convocation's approval of Thorseby's Instruction and Catechism and also of Taystek's versification of it (which is fourteen hundred lines long). Nevertheless I was surprised to find that a number of years later Mirk should have written his Instructions which covered precisely the same ground and so closely resembled it, even to the sermonettes at the end. There can be no doubt that the Lay Folks Gtechism, Mirk's Instructions and Urbanitatis are linked together by being written in Latin and translated into English verse 'the more easily to be committed to memory', and that the Regius MS. provides a final link in the chain, being versified for the same reason. This gives the answer to Hamer's third question. It also makes clear why the manuscript left no successor. When the buildings at Lantony were finished in 1402, this band of masons would leave the site. The manuscript having been written by a member of the priory, it would be placed in its library. It remained there until the dissolution of the monasteries in 1559 when the last Prior, Robert Hart, took it away with him. Its history ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````useless, to speculate whether the masons who left Latony in 1402 moved southwards to another Augustinian foundation, perhaps to Cirencester or Oxford or Dorchester, and persuaded another canon to write the Cooke MS. After the section of this paper on Mirk's Instructions had been written, a member of the staff of the Sheffield University Library drew my attention to a recent acquisition, a book by G. Kristensson, John Mirk's Instructions for Parish Priests, published in 1974. This is based not only on the manuscript Cotton Claudius A H (which was available to Peacock and to Knoop, Jones and Hamer), but also on six other manuscripts of Mirk's work. It includes inter alia a length discussion of the dialect in which Mirk wrote, and considers that there is evidence of northern influence as well as that of the West Midlands. It concludes that it is a versified translation of parts of William de Pagula's Oculus Sacerdotus. There is a reference to the 'borrowing' in the Regius MS. but Thoresby's Catechism is not mentioned. It may be of course that this also derives from Pagula's work; there was much unacknowledged borrowing in those days. This does not conflict with my option that Mirk knew about the directive and that his versification resulted from that of Taystek. Kristensson does not mention that any other of Mirk's works was versified. old charges part 6 THE SOURCES OF THE REGIUS AND THE COOKE MANUSCRIPTS There remains the problem 'how does it come about that these two versions of the Old Charges were written in very similar dialects at this particular time?' In the west of England there is a magnificent chain of cathedrals without parallel elsewhere: Exeter, Wells, Gloucester, Worcestershire and Hereford, as well as many abbeys and castles, on which building was carried out almost continuously during the five centuries before A.D. 1500. It is not strange that both the manuscripts in question should say that Athelstan, grandson of Alfred the Great gave charges to masons for he was the King of Wessex before he became King of All England, and he is reputed to have been the founder in 932 of the monastic house which was the fore-runner of the cathedral at Exeter. In the middle of this chain there developed a Gloucester School of Masons whose outstanding figure was Walter of Hereford. In the middle of the fourteenth century, after the Black Death, Edward III decided to rebuild Windsor Castle. He impressed masons from all parts of the country for this work. In view of the development of the Gloucester School, it is not surprising to find that John of Sponlee was put in charge of the work in 1350, that William of Wynford was 'made chief Architect at Windsor joint with John of Sponlee in 1351' and took over from him in 1357; Robert of Gloucester was named as 'Warden of the Masons' there in 1357: all were from the West Country (Henry de Yvele, J.R. Harvey, 1944). Moreover the second Article in both Charges states that every master mason shall attend the congregation unless he has reasonable excuse for absence. My perusal of a large number of versions of the Old Charges (albeit a fraction of the whole) shows that our two earliest versions are the only ones which allow 'reasonable excuse'; the great majority require attendance within if within fifty miles of the place of meeting, although a minority lower the requirement to a walking distance of ten miles or less. The greater distance is unrealistic because it would entail an absence from work for many days. I cannot remember that any allowance was made for this in the building accounts studied by Knoop and Jones in the Mediaeval Mason. As a matter of fact, for a large part of the time after 1400 the question of the Assemblies would not arise. At the beginning of the reign of Henry VI, in 1425, a ban was placed on holding them on the ground that they contravened the Statutes of Labourers. The masons protested that they were as loyal and law-abiding as other trades and objected to being singled out for attack. Condor (The Hole Craft and Fellowship of Masons, p.77) observes that 'we do not hear of this Act being put into force' and he gives high legal opinion that it was repealed in 1562. It may be a coincidence but it was about this time that the earliest extant post-reformation versions of the Old Charges appeared. After this it was permissable to hold Assemblies but there is only one statement that one was held. The Roberts MS. of 1722 avers that an Assembly was held in 1663 but there is no supporting evidence. There is substance in Anderson's claim that the function of the Assembly was taken over by Grand Lodge, though copies of the Charges were made for some time after 1723. However this may be it is evident that, while it would be possible to hold a full Assembly of masons during the building of Windsor Castle, this could not be done thereafter. I suggest therefore that the common ancestors of our two manuscripts, from which the requirement of Assemblies would be taken, were written at this period. They would remain in the hands of the chief masons when this work was finished and would be carried by them back to the West Country. This speculation agrees with the date suggested for the two sources in 2EMM, page 59. I conclude with the lines written about six hundred years ago: Amen, Amen. So mote it be, So say we alle for charyte. NOTES 1. Not to be confused with the Sloane MS. No. 3329, which is a catechism reproduced in Conder's Records ofthe Hole Craft and Fellowship of Mason S (1894), p.227. 2. Both the Instructions and Urbanitatis are reprinted in the collections of the Early English Tract Society. Original Series. Vols. 31 and 32 respectively.eprintedt Date: 11-21-96 (02:49) Number: 1549 of 1568 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: cohen@ns.moran.com, PAMELA & STEVEN COHEN Subj: What's All the Fuss? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: a Digital Internet AlphaServer Site Message-ID: <32940979.500D@ns.moran.com> Reply-To: cohen@ns.moran.com I am certainly not an authority on Masonry, so take this post for what it's worth. As a Mason for about 10 years or so I've attended lodge meetings as often as I could knowing that the men I was socializing with were, like me, God fearing men. I have never looked at my Masonic "Temple" as a substitute for my chosen temple of worship (I'm Jewish) nor did anything in any of the ceremonies at blue lodge even come close to offending my Jewish identity. In my experience, Masonry could perhaps be considered by some to be a "religious group" only insofar as all members are men of faith, in the most eccumenical (spelling?) sense. I have also observed that the Masonic setting, in lodge, gives men an opportunity to pray to their own God or Supreme Deity. For people who do not go to temple/church or take the time to kneel by their bedsides, this may actually be the only time they do commune with their Maker, so in that sense, Masonry gives some a "forum" if you will, to exercise their own religion. To an outsider, I can see how this could give the appearance of being a religious organization, and even an "organized religion" if they want to define the "religion" of Masonry as a non-specific devotion to an undefined Supreme Being. I'm sure there are some people out there, some Masons, for whom Masonry fulfills a religious need or void, in that they can exercise their creed. I also imagine that there are lodges out there with members who are devout to their own religions and feel compelled to attempt to tinge or imbue Masonic meetings with their own religious beliefs. I must suppose that some Masters allow this, even though it is against Masonic principles. Since Masons care about one another, it wouldn't surprise me to learn of instances in which Masons attempt to "save the souls" of their brothers by injecting denominational dogma into meetings, even though it has never happened at my lodge (Ancient Landmarks #441, Erie County, New York). Masonic ritual seems to be as religion-neutral as an organization of religious men could possible be. It is not perfect in that regard, and I have known some people who felt that aspects of the Masonic ritual struck chords of inconsistency with their religion, and they have, sadly, left the craft for that reason. Most Masons choose to accept the spirit of religious neutrality that Masonry espouses and they function from day to day, year to year without offense. Some people look for controversy, and can pick the ritual apart and choose to impute religious bias to it. For those who look to do that, they can find their own ammunition. For those who are devout to their own faith and wish to participate in the Masonic Fraternity, they can do so without any trouble by looking to the eccumenical spirit of Masonry during ritual and easily remain true to their own beliefs at all times. Even the Pope, I believe, came to that conclusion during Vatican II. What I am trying to say, although not very well, I'm afraid, is that Masonry is a complex and deeply rooted organization, which does not have specific religious guidelines and so is kind of like an inkblot, in which people can see what they want to see. All the dialogue I see going back and forth stands little chance of leading anywhere because of that fact. Sorry for the lengthy post. It kind of got away from me. Steve Cohen, Ancient Landmarks #441, New York Date: 11-21-96 (05:52) Number: 1553 of 1568 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: gp@melbpc.org.au, GRAHAM PAUL Subj: Masonry - A most enjoyable evening... Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Melbourne PC User Group Inc, Australia Message-ID: <3292b881.4244054@news.melbpc.org.au> Brethren, Last night I attended Mozart Lodge which was hosting two unique masonic events. The lodge was not opened and the only signs given were the sign of fidelity. Cameras and video cameras were in evidence to record these events. The first event was that Mozart is this year hosting the International Ceremony. This consisted of a parade of flags of all nations with the flag bearer escorted by a native of the nation concerned. They entered the lodge one by one as announced by the Grand Director of Ceremonies and proceeded to the East. The flags were set in position where the visiting WMs and PMs usually sit. This was a most colorful ceremony and indicated the diversity of nations who range under the flag of Freemasonry. The next event was the lodge was opened as The Lodge of Mourning. The Lodge of Mourning is held once a year to commemmorate those members of the lodge that have passed to the Grand Lodge Above, and also to remember the thousands of Freemasons that were persecuted and murdered by the Nazis in Germny between 1933 and 1945. The lodge was in darkness lit only by a candle at the desks of the WM, JW & SW and a line of candle bearers on the Southern and Northern sides of the mosaic pavement. The SW advanced to the vacant stool in front of the WM pedestal and laid a red rose for strength, a white rose for beauty and a yellow rose for wisdom. He also laid a bunch of Forget-me-nots for the Nazi victims. Simple non-denominational prayer were recited in both German first and English. Unfortunately, my words can not do either of these ceremonies justice. I reccomend all brethren to visit Mozart next year if they can. In the South a grand total of 275 meals were served. The WM of Mozart was overwhelmed, they were expecting approx 150 masons and wives/friends and were most pleased to get 275. Unfortunately your correspondent partook of too much German hospitality - much gemutlicheit - and had one too many schnapps so he was a little slow getting going the next day. To any new masons or prospective candidates who have read this far, this is what Masonry is all about. Fellowship, meeting new friends in a positive and uplifting environment and learning a little bit about other nationalities all with peaces and harmony. Fraternally, Graham Paul, Chaplain St Clair Lodge of Victoria No 43 UGL of AF&AM of Victoria Date: 11-21-96 (21:32) Number: 1558 of 1568 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: mtavy@mail.zynet.co.uk, GERRY SARGENT Subj: Re: Freemasonry Questions Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: If only there were......! Message-ID: <32953AD2.2759@mail.zynet.co.uk> Reply-To: mtavy@mail.zynet.co.uk chb11@aol.com wrote: > > I've been reading a lot lately about Freemasonry (the Temple & the Lodge, > Born in Blood, Duncan's Masonic Ritual, and a few others). I'm not a SNIPPED....'cos I'll leave it for others to respond. > Just one more and I'll stop. I've read that one of the requirements to be > a Freemason is the belief in a supreme being. How literal is this? Does > the belief in the existance of a set of unchanging universal morals or > truths count? Or does it mean that you have to believe in a personified > supreme being? > > Thanks in advance to anyone who responds seriously. Sorry about my > spelling. Hi there, The Supreme Being bit is there because you will be expected to swear an oath - just as you would be expected to do if you went into a witness box in a court or similar. If you were unable to do so because you did not believe then how would you be able to prove your sincerity? Question - Why should you do this? Answer - because it is a requirement of a certain private group of people towards those who they see as possible future companions. If you want to join them and you share their philosophy then you should have no problem. If you don't share that viewpoint or belief then - surprise, surprise, they would not want you to join them! As you see, nothing "earthshattering" nor "unusual" here - certain "rules" or conditions apply to almost all private organisations. The "form" of the Supreme Being" obviously varies. The Christians will have a Trinitarian view of the Supreme Being, the Jews another and so on. Vive le Difference!! You would be asked whether you believe in a Supreme Being. If you don't know whether you believe or not, well friend, I'm afraid I could do no other than vote against your admittance to Freemasonry in my Lodge. Either way the result isn't life-threatening is it - acceptance or rejection! The above views are my own personal views and does not reflect in any way the opinions of UGLE or any other Masonic organisation. See, them Mason fellas do allow free thought after all:-) Best wishes. Gerry Sargent.MM. Bedford 282.UGLE. Date: 11-23-96 (05:44) Number: 1631 of 1667 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: hypnosis@pacbell.net, EUGENE GOLDMAN · Subj: Re: Christian with a thought. Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: His personal offices Message-ID: <32968928.173689711@pbinews.pacbell.net> Reply-To: hypnosis@pacbell.net On 22 Nov 1996 14:46:32 GMT, aggie@ee.tamu.edu (Joe Aggie) wrote: >I preclude all this by saying that both my grandfathers were masons and >that I recognize that many fine christians have been masons. Here's the >reasons I cannot be a mason. >1) It turns into a one world religion. Maybe not the blue lodge degrees, >but the big mason who's muslim and the big mason who's christian are >both okey dokey according to the lodge. Doesn't jive with John 14:6 or >John 3:3. Scripture says two different individuals cannot have two different religions when they are in the same group? Really? >2) Secret ways: we're to give them up. 2 Chronicles 4:2 Respecting the confidences of others, and respecting the privacy of an organization to which you belong is wrong? In that case, you find the same prohibition against being an attorney, physician or member of the cleargy. You could not, of course, work for a living. I say this because all of the three above mentioned professions are *required* to keep secrets. All employers have "secret ways" that employees are required to respect, and may even be legally punished for violating. When I served my country in the military, and several times since, I have had high-level security clearances. These clearances *require* me to keep a great many secrets, even to this day. I cannot discuss them with anyone. According to the views you express, you should not, under any circumstances, enter Government service or the military. >3) No shortage of symbols borrowed from the occult and/or other >religions. G-d always seemed to be a one way or highway sorta guy. No shortage of symbols borrowed from the occult or other religions appear in Christianity. "One way or the highway" Symbolism is a great way to teach Truth. It is a method employed by every religion, fraternity, society and government. The flag is "the symbol of our Country". The red symbolises the blood shed in the defense of it's citizens, the white symbolises the purity of our intentions, and the blue symbolises the peace we try so hard to attain and maintain. So, by your standards, it is wrong for you to be an american as well. >4) Masonry denies the great commission. Not supposed to witness >to the guys in the lodge, slight problem with God's marching orders in >the end of Matthew. Not supposed to witness to people in a theater or classroom either, that's not what is supposed to be going on there. Private businesses are out. So, again by the standards you set, you should never go to the movies, or take any kind of class outside your church, or go shopping. Can't witness there, shoulden't go there, right? > >I understand masonry means alot to y'all, and I understand some of y'all >really love Jesus, but I really feel your serving two masters. All Masons I have had the pleasure of meeting serve G-d, their families, themselves, and the organizations they belong to (Scouting, Masonry, Campfire, PTA, Community affairs, sports, etc.), in that order. Masonry teaches this. If any level of service conflicts with another, follow the higher calling. If the demands of providing for your family interfere with your hobbies, drop the hobbies. It's that simple. I have yet to meet a Christian (or Jew, Hindu or Muslim, for that matter) that finds any conflict between his religious teachings and practicing the precepts and teachings of Masonry (Brotherly Love, Relief, Truth, Faith, Hope, Charity, Tolerance, Temprence, Fortitude, Prudence and Justice). I know there are some religions that would find a conflict here, but I do not know anyone who practices them. I have read some of their posts, though, before I started filtering them out. > >-Respectfully submitted, > Some guy who thinks we should walk in the light serving Jesus, > and not have secret rituals. Respectfully responded Some guy who thinks we should serve the Creator in all that we do, and chooses to do so by practicing Brotherly Love, Relief, Truth, Faith, Hope, Charity, Tolerance, Temprence, Fortitude, Prudence and Justice. Be well. Travel with a light heart. Eugene Goldman P.·. M.·. Blackmer Lodge #442, San Diego, Ca. Black Mountain Masonic Lodge, U.D., San Diego, Ca. Southern Ca. Research Lodge A.A.S.R., Valley of San Diego May Brotherly Love forever prevail, and every moral and social Virtue cement us. If you can read this, you have gone too far! Date: 11-24-96 (01:51) Number: 1674 of 1715 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: petes4309@aol.com, PETE STENCIL Subj: Re: 33rd Degree Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Message-ID: <3297FE93.FEA@aol.com> Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry joken@wild.net wrote: > > Some Masonic tid-bits.......... > > 1) The Tiler is the officer in a Lodge responsible for keeping all "profane > persons" (non-Masons) from entering the Lodge Hall. He is usually armed > with a sword and guards the door during meetings. > > 2) In a "well-ordered Lodge" the name of Jesus is not allowed to be spoken. > Praying in His name is a serious offense and can bring about the closing of > a lodge. When New Testament Scriptures are read in the rituals, portions > including the name of Jesus are simply omitted. > > 3) Every Shriner, kneeling before the Koran, takes the oath in the name of > Allah, and acknowledges this pagan god of vegence as his own ("the God of > our fathers"). In the third ritual, he acknowledges Islam, the declared > blood-enemy of Christianity, as the one true path. ("Whoso seeketh Islam > earnestly seeks true direction.") > > 4) The 33rd Degree Ceremony....... > > In order to receive the 33rd Degree, it is necessary to go the House of the > Temple, N.W. 16th Street (between R and S streets), Washington, DC. In > order to receive the degree, the candidate is expected to make a "minimum > donation" of a large amount of money. > > The first day is devoted to registration, briefings and interviews. > > The second day is the actual initiation, held in the theater-like meeting > room. This room is elegantly furnished and decorated. The ceiling is dark > blue, with lights set into it to give the appearance of stars that twinkle > like stars in the sky. There is also a well-equipped stage. But the most > notable decoration is the way the walls are decorated with serpents. There > are all kinds; some very long and large. Many of the Scottish Rite degrees > include the representation of serpents. There are busts of outstanding men > in this room, including two busts of Albert Pike, who is buried there in > the wall. > > The candidate is dressed in black trousers, barefooted, bareheaded and > draped in a long black robe. He has a black cabletow around his neck but is > not hoodwinked. During the initiation he is led around the stage, conducted > by two men with swords, as the degree is performed. Instructions and signs > are given. Upon the altar are four "holy books" (the Bible, the Koran, the > Book of the Law and the Hindu Scriptures). At one point the candidate is > told to kiss the book "of your religion." When it is time for the final > obligation, the candidate stands and repeats the oath, administered by the > Sovereign Grand Inspector General. He swears true allegiance to the Supreme > Council of the 33rd Degree, above all other allegiances, and swears never > to recognize any other brother as being a member of the Scottish Rite of > Freemasonry unless he also recognizes the supreme authority of "this > Supreme Council." > > Then the candidate is handed a human skull, upside down, with wine in it. > The candidate then seals the oath, repeating "May this wine I now drink > become a deadly poison to me, as the Hemlock juice drunk by Socrates, > should I ever knowlingly or willfully violate this oath." The candidate > then drinks the wine. A skeleton (one of the brothers dressed like one) > steps out of the shadows and throws his arms around the candidate and > continues the sealing of the oath. The skeleton says, and the candidate > repeats "And may these cold arms forever encircle me should I ever > knowingly or willfully violate the same." The Sovereign Grand Commander > closes the meeting of the Supreme Council "with the Mystic Number," > striking with his sword five, three, one and then two times. After the > closing prayer, all say "amen, amen, amen," and it is over. > > The third day is the banquet to honor the new "Grand Inspectors General, > 33rd Degree." > > () () > \\(o o)// > --------o00-=(_)=-00o-------- > joken@wild.net > ³0ëªtî¡lc驪>KÚG%úé™A»\Kê‡Ï‡^ˆ˜,ŹÀmåÜ)ß\• > http://www.wild.net/~joken I sincerely hope that Jim Shaw sues your rear-end for a lot of money. Not only did you fail to cite permission from his publishers to quote him, but you also selfishly took credit for all this information yourself. You, sir, are an annoyance to us RESPECTABLE Cowans! Date: 11-27-96 (08:38) Number: 1764 of 1816 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: mbayrak@gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca, MICHAEL BAYRAK Subj: The effect of alt.freemasonry on non-masons. Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: University of Alberta Message-ID: <57gumj$i6q@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> I would say that because of the open friendly straightforward answers and remarks of the Masons on here, non-Masons have felt an absolutely 100% positive nature of the Craft. The anti-Masons have no effect because of the many of us who wanted to get more information, have, and in doing so, have also pondered on whether to petition a lodge. You have all witnessed the many posts that indicate a man's declaration or intention of joining, myself included. Mr. Firestone, it seems to me that you are sort of the Worshipful Master of the eMason alt.freemasonry Lodge #1. There are other notables on here, too many to mention, but they all should be commended for their replies to interested men. This good attitude is an indication and representation of what Freemasonry is all about. So I say to all Masons and non and anti Masons that feel that the World's Greatest Fraternity of Relief, Truth, and Brotherly Love is NOT in decline, and it is NOT dying. For those who feel that negativity, should look at the accomplishments that this newsgroup has achieved in enlightening the world and educating those who had previous misconceptions. Look at the men on here like myself, who have and will join - I honestly don't believe we would have considered it if it were not for this newsgroup and the honourable Masons who have contributed. For that, I thank you. /----------------------------------------------------------------------\ | Michael S. Bayrak | University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada || |_______________________/ Dept. of Mathematical Sciences || | http://www.ualberta.ca/~mbayrak || | Delta Phi of DELTA KAPPA EPSILON #851 || | http://www.ualberta.ca/~deltake || \=====================================================================// Date: 11-27-96 (01:16) Number: 1770 of 1816 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: sgtp8506@imcnet.net, EDWARD PUNT Subj: Re: James Bruce Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: a Digital Internet AlphaServer Site Message-ID: <01bbdc01$50407460$e78c70ce@sgtp8506> A challenge to Masonic experts! (submitted with all due respect) James Bruce embarked on an expedition to Ethiopia in 1769. What was he looking for? Graham Hancock writes: "...forced to conclude that the Scottish traveller had knowingly misled his readers about the Ark. But why should he have wanted to do that? What motive? Curiosity aroused, I reread his description of Axum (in Tigray) and came across important detail... his own visit there had taken place on 18th-19th of January 1770 [James Bruce, Travels vol.III pp 128-33]. Bruce says,'On the 18th in the morning, we... came into the plain wherein stood Axum to be 14 6'36" north...'" Now this in itself is of great importance, as January 17th is a crucial date in Masonic circles, pre-dating this expedition by decades. Do you dismiss this a mere coincidence? The 17th is also a key date for the Templars and Priory of Sion. Again... coincidence? FACT: James Bruce found the Book of Enoch and brought it home FACT: Bruce was a Freemason. THEORY: The Knights Templar went to Ethiopia in the 12th century. FACT: Templar symbols were found at Axum. QUESTION: Why, in the name of all the gods at once, did Bruce go to Ethiopia in the first place? The source of the Blue Nile was already known! (That was his 'cover' story.) Why did the Ethiopians allow him to take the Book of Enoch back to England? Shades of Kipling! The Ethiopians accepted him as a brother! Did the Freemasons already know about Enoch before this expedition? What was the source of their knowledge of Enoch? The book did not exist in Europe! Why should they include him in their rituals? I have asked this question time and time again. Do you ignore it because you have no explanation... or because you prefer not to think about it, because it tends to prove a connection between FM and the Templars? What are you afraid of? The truth? In the spirit of responsible scholarship, -Brian Mattys -Brian Mattys Well I'm by no means an expert on Freemasonry but I have studied the Knights Templar expeditions in Ethiopia. The Knights Templar were in Ethiopia for an obvious reason; they were searching for the Ark of the Covenant. They believed that King Solomon's son Menelik stole the Ark and brought it to Ethiopia, the home of his mother, the Queen of Sheba. The Templars were great stone masons who built some of the most incredible structures in Ethiopia. (Many believe that the Templars built the huge steles that are standing in Ethiopia today. Others believe that the power of the Ark raised these massive structures. There isn't a construction crew around anywhere in the world today that would be able to raise the steles that are in Ethiopia because they can often weigh as much as 600,000 pounds). Now James Bruce visited Ethiopia for unknown reasons but it would seem to me that he too was interested in the lost Ark. He did say that he was trying to find the source of the Nile but being a well educated man he would have known that the source of the Nile was discovered by a Portuguese priest named Pedro Paez about 100 years earlier. He was also fluent in "Ge'ez" which is the ancient language of Ethiopia and the language in which the "Kebra Nagast" was written. (He took a copy of the Kebra Nagast back to Scotland with him as well as the book of Enoch. But if you listen to the leaders of the Ethiopian Church today they will tell you he stole it. Both are at the Bodleian Library in Oxford) I don't think the Ethiopians considered him a brother; maybe a welcome friend but not a brother. Which brings us to James Bruce's relation to Freemasonry. Nobody knows for sure if he was a Freemason. You stated it as "Fact" but there is no proof either way. I would like to think he was because he was a great man. If you have proof please let me know. I would love to see it. The dates you state have nothing to do with some great secret that Freemasons and Templars share. James Bruce went to Ethiopia on those dates to see a ritual performed by members of the Ethiopian Church called "Timkat." This ceremony takes place on January 18th and 19th and is performed in honor of the Ark. (Actually it's performed in honor of God but replicas of the stone tablets which the 10 Commandments were written on and later placed in the Ark are used in the ceremony) Bruce knew that he would have to be in Axum, Ethiopia on these dates if he was to confirm that the Ethiopian Church was in possesion of the Ark. Was James Bruce a Freemason? I would like to think so. Does this prove that the Templars and Freemasonry are in some way connected. I would like to believe that also. True, the Templars are said to have engaged in odd rituals but I don't believe that they were satanic in any way. They were a group of honorable men on a quest. That's all. -- Edward Punt Lawton Lodge #183 Lawton, OK http://freedomstarr.com/?PU4447491 ***The Ways Of Virtue Are Beautiful*** Date: 11-26-96 (19:21) Number: 1771 of 1816 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: mornhm@prairienet.org, KEVIN J BROWN Subj: Re: A New Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Prairienet Message-ID: <57fg0c$l5r@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> A New Renaissance? Robert Olivier Wrote >I read an article called "Freemasonry on The Verge of A New >Renaissance" at a Scottish Rite web site. This article is >available at >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/supreme_council_sj_usa/>dille.htm > It seems to advocate increasing Masonic membership as an end in >itself. >many snips from a well written article. Please understand that not every Mason agrees with this idea. The discussions about what if anything should be done about decreasing membership numbers are ongoing. Each Mason is entitled to their own opinion on the subject. Several notable actions have been taken by various Grand Lodges (such as Festivals in Illinois where a man could receive all three degrees in one day). These actions are undergoing scrutiny to see if they are good for the Fraternity and the participating brethren. In our lodge we did not encourage or discourage our candidates to go to the festivals. Some members took it upon themselves to take candidates to the Festivals and our lodge supported them in this effort. One of the new Master Masons will be taking an office in our lodge for the coming year, along with his Uncle and Father. His father has been a MM for several years but now will be an officer in line with his son. The Uncle has been an officer for several years and next year will hold the office of JW. The son would probably not be a MM today if he were faced with the traditional method of becoming a MM. If you look at the time such a person plans to spend in our lodge after being raised to the degree of MM, I think you would agree that there is ample time to learn much from the craft. Even with our lodge's successes in the Festivals, we are still taking a "wait and see" perspective. However, we do find it very hard today to find any major fault in the idea. If there is a "fault" it may be that not all of our members who would normally have attended these new brothers' degrees could make it to the festival. From the reports returned by the new MM's and the brothers that attended with them, most if not all of the brethren who did not attend felt like they had missed out. Please let me express one way of looking at this question. If good men will no longer join our organization because of changes in society or expectations does that mean they are no longer good men? Or that they would not be an asset to our fraternity? I don't think so. I have never understood Masonry to be looking for perfect men to form a perfect organization. The way it was explained to me is that Masonry attempts to help good men to learn how to become better men. I personally feel that no matter how long a person takes becoming a MM there is still much to learn in and about Freemasonry, and that the more a MM learns, the more there is to learn. I also think that each of our members contributes to this learning process. I hope that you and other men considering joining Freemasonry will not be put off by what is an ongoing discussion. Also do not think that you will be considered just another number if you do decide to join. Later Kevin Date: 11-27-96 (02:36) Number: 1775 of 1816 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rharlos@cybercomm.net, .:.epignosis.:. Subj: Re: Statistically speaking. . . Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: CyberComm Online Services Message-ID: <57fprc$hcn@crow.cybercomm.net> jrh32srm@mindspring.com (J. Russell Hudson) wrote: > JIM BUTLER wrote: > >You are not misguided! It is just that the Truth of God, not my truth > >has been hidden from you because you have strayed from the will of God > >and are under the attack of Satan. Pray and ask God to give you wisdom > >and understanding concerning the Word of God and you will soon receive > >the revelation that will bring the true light of masonry into focus. > >When you see that masonry and Jesus Christ are not compatable, you will > >be called out like many others. > OK, I am going to stop lurking now. I've had enough. What's next Mr. > Butler? The Boy Scouts, The Elks Club, The Lions Club, The Civitans, > The Jaycees, ? hmmm? I mean they're all fraternal organizations that > perform good services to their community and fellow man. Some strive > to build good solid moral character and stress honesty , integrity, > and other virtues. But I guess they are all cults in your book, huh? > As someone who undoubtedly loves Jesus and diligently studies the > written word of God, you are obviously filled with the blessed > assurance of eternal life because you professed your belief in Jesus > Christ as your personal saviour, am I right? If so I have only one > question to ask you. > WHY ARE YOU SO UNHAPPY? > If the things I said about you are true, and believe me sir, they were > not said in jest, nor meant to be perceived as sarcasm, for when I > dare to espouse my opinion about another man's faith, it would only > be if I felt that person held personal convictions and beliefs similar > to my own. You see, at the age of 15 I was 'saved'. I was convicted by > the Holy Spirit of my sins, came forward and made a public confession > , and with the assistance of my Sunday School teacher, asked Jesus > into my heart, and believe me Mr. Butler, I know beyond a shadow of a > doubt that He answered my prayer. I know my Lord. I know that He was > flogged until the upper layers of skin on his back hung in shards, I > know that the 'crown of thorns' were not just little rosebush > prickles, but more akin to sewing needles. I know He underwent the > agony of the crucifixion, actually suffocating to death as he became > unable or simply tired of lifting himself to allow a breath to be > taken, and I also know that when He died, He so willed it to happen. > I know that three days later He arose again. I know that he was born > of a virgin birth. I know that the Bible is the Word of God. I am a > christian also Mr. Butler, and I have been for a quarter of a century > now. I have been a Master Mason for about half that time. I just > recently made the move into the Scottish Rite and the Shrine. So > please don't tell me that Masonry and it's secondary bodies are > incompatible with Christianity, it's just not so from my perspective. > If you feel the way you do, then by all means don't become a Mason, > you won't be happy. Which brings me back to my point I strayed so far > from, and that is, I don't think your too happy a person as it is, and > most of the Christians I know are pretty happy people. I know I am. > J. Russell Hudson M.M. Wahouma Lodge #763 > 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Mason Birmingham Valley > P.S. > How many cults do you know whose members routinely fight and die for > freedom? Ever heard of the Alamo? Were you aware that Colonels William > Barrett Travis and James Bowie were masons?, just like Davy Crockett > and the small band of Tennessee Volunteers that followed him to San > Antonio to resist the tyranny of Santa Anna. It was their lives lost > that gave Sam Houston enough time to finish he preparations to > eventually defeat Santa Anna, oh well enough history. But remember, > they were Masons. > I'm sorry, it's just that words mean things. So many people insist on > tossing around vocabulary without thinking first. > > Richard (1 Peter 3:15b NIV) Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.... Date: 11-27-96 (05:30) Number: 1776 of 1816 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rharlos@cybercomm.net, .:.epignosis.:. Subj: Re: God of the Bible Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: CyberComm Online Services Message-ID: <57g40p$jct@crow.cybercomm.net> mornhm@prairienet.org (Kevin J. Brown) wrote: > JIM BUTLER (EUS.JIMB@ERU.ERICSSON.SE) wrote: > : The Word of God created all things. According to John chapter 1, Jesus > : Christ is the Word and all things were created by him. Since your God > : is the God of all religions, he can not be the God you worship since my > : God says that we are to have no other God's before us. > -- > What????? > The logic does not make sense to me. Any one else? > Kevin I think what Jim is trying to communicate here is contained in the following Scriptures: (John 1:1-3 NIV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. {2} He was with God in the beginning. {3} Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (Hebrews 1:1-3 NIV) In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, {2} but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. {3} The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. (John 14:6 NIV) Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (Galatians 1:6-9 NIV) I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- {7} which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. {8} But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! {9} As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! The Bible clearly indicates that, whatever title we may assign to God, there is no access to Him except through the atonment of Jesus. In that regard, the Great Architect Of The Universe must either be accessed in the name of Jesus and by those who have been born again (as the following passage demonstrates), or GAOTU doesn't equal the God of the Bible: (Acts 19:13-20 NIV) Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." {14} Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. {15} One day the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" {16} Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding. {17} When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. {18} Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. {19} A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas. {20} In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power. If I am mistaken about Jim's intention, he is free to correct me. Richard (1 Peter 3:15b NIV) Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.... Date: 11-25-96 (14:55) Number: 1777 of 1816 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: fowlerrw@pinkinc.com, R W FOWLER Subj: Re: Christian with a thought. Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Message-ID: <3299f9a4.pktn@pinkinc.com> Organization: Getting better daily... That is very good. Suppose one person drew an angle of 90 degrees in the dirt, instead of the curve; and that the other person drew an angle of 60 degrees superimposed on the first angle, instead of the corresponding curve.... It might almost serve as a sign of recognition for Masons. Very interesting that you should mention it. :-) Thanks. -- R W Fowler Lockbourne Lodge #232 F&AM, Lockbourne OH I previously wrote: > I might suggest that the parables in which Jesus often spoke >were a way of conveying secrets while in public, as there were >several levels of understanding contained within them, and I >cannot think there was anything wrong with that practice. Then Sun, 24 Nov 1996, "Sean Clay" wrote: > The 'fish' symbol comes to mind. It was originally used by Christians to > determine if the person that they were talking to was also a Christian. > While talking, one would draw a curve in the dirt with a stick. If the > other person was a Christian, he would make another curve, turning the > first curve into the 'fish'. Just my .02 worth! Date: 11-27-96 (18:07) Number: 1788 of 1816 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: What's All the Fuss? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <57i01k$t9d@news2.cais.com> In article <329A10D2.521F@ERU.ERICSSON.SE>, JIM BUTLER wrote: >One of the highest authorities on Freemasonry was Albert Pike. He wrote >in his writings that Freemasonry was a religion. > >I am confused with the contradictions of members and authorities. First of all, Albert Pike was an authority only over the Southern Jurisdiction of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite in the US, not for all of Masonry. Secondly, his _authority_ consisted in direction of procedural and administrative matters, and in the text of the degrees (ritual). Morals and Dogma, or any other writing of Pike you cite that is available to the public, is suggestive, not authoritative. (Or descriptive, rather than prescriptive.) The ability to understand Morals and Dogma, and much of other of Pike's writings for Masons, is predicated on having received the degrees of the Scottish Rite. And in having a general knowledge of philosophy and the history of religion. (If you have not studied calculus and kinematics, quantum theory will only confuse you and seem contradictory.) Further, when Pike referred to Masonry as a "temple of religion," he did not mean that a specific religion was practiced there, only that Masonry and the Lodge constituted a place where men of religious faith could come to have that believe, of whatever denomination, affirmed. An attempt to enforce simple and obvious meanings on the writings of Albert Pike makes no more sense than to do so to the works of any philosopher, whether it be St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, David Hume, or Soeren Kierkegaard. If you don't have the background to being with, you are going to make a hash of things. And you don't have the background to understand Pike, as your comments make clear. Stick to Carl Claudy, if you want to read about Freemasonry. He wrote for the novice, not for the experienced and learned Freemason (although such can still benefit from his books, nevertheless). A naive view of Pike is like a naive view of Einstein's relativity. It gives you the wrong answer. Freshman students of physics don't understand why velocities don't add linearly. They do in the everyday world. But the truth about physics and the explanation thereof require a deeper understanding. Those who want to take the time can receive that enlightenment. Those that don't go on to become bankers or something other than physicists. Most of them are smart enough not to present themselves as physicists; the ones who do are laughed at, privately at least. When you quote Pike on the subject of religion, you expose only your lack of knowledge, background, and understanding, not any "contradiction" among Freemasons. On what other subject do you presume to instruct those who are more knowledgeable than you, eh? And to what result? Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 11-26-96 (23:12) Number: 1792 of 1816 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: phadrus@aol.com, PHADRUS Subj: Re: A New Renaissance Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19961126231400.SAA16199@ladder01.news.aol.com> Apparantly, Robert, since you seem to be interested in freemasonry, there still exists attraction to and hope for the craft. I, myself, being a young man of 22, relatively new to the craft, have also wondered how freemasonry should adapt to the modern age. I agree with you that masonic standards should never, ever be compromised, even for what might appear to be desireable goals(such as attraction of members). And being an optimist, I tend to believe that there still exists a great pool of humanity ready to be illuminated through the teachings of the craft. EVEN in our current culture which is widely regarded as being apathetic, shallow, and concerned primarily with short term self satisfaction. Yet, I feel that, in this electronic media age, we must find new ways to present the craft to those who seek its enlightenment without actively seeking new members. We must put masonry in the eyes of the majority. Let it's light shine all over as a beacon to those who want to better themselves and the world around them. Freemasonry has, through the help of the media, conspiracy theorists, and religious fundamentalists gained the reputation of being a secret society of stuffy old men bent on ruling the world for their own benefit. This is really NOT the case, and unless we can begin to change people's perceptions to show the youth of the world that freemasonry can be every bit as rewarding to them as it was to to countless generations before them, freemasonry will suffer. I have the firm belief that freemasonry is the vehicle that can bring about greater cooperation between all people on this planet. With such cooperation, think of all the good things that can be done. Just IMAGINE what a society of millions of men with love and goodness in their hearts can accomplish. But, we need to formulate a road that will get us there. And, Robert, just a question, if you were drawn to a beautiful woman, wouldn't you ASK her out? Date: 11-28-96 (04:48) Number: 1814 of 1816 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: hypnosis@pacbell.net, EUGENE GOLDMAN · Subj: Re: Free Masonry and public education Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: His personal offices Message-ID: <329d182d.71381189@pbinews.pacbell.net> Reply-To: hypnosis@pacbell.net On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:55:12 -0800, Donnell Miller wrote: >Brethren > I have heard that freemasons were in large part responsible for >the development of public education in the USA. I beliec this occured >during the last century. Perhaps this is an area where we could help >this country again. > Does anybody have any references that would help me find out more >of this history. The Grand Lodge of California has never ceased it's support of public education. On top of the book drives, fund raisers and cornerstone layings we do for public education, on top of the scolorships Lodges offer to students seeking higher education The Grand Lodge, a few years ago started the Modle Student Assistant Program. This cutting edge program will enable teachers and administrators to recognise an at-risk student and give them the resources to interviene or have the proper public agency do the same. No cost to the teacher, the school or the public. All paid for by Masons who care about today's, and tomorrow's youth. Our support of public education has never been interrupted, and with the blessings of TGAOTU, it never will. Be well. Travel with a light heart. Eugene Goldman P.·. M.·. Blackmer Lodge #442, San Diego, Ca. Black Mountain Masonic Lodge, U.D., San Diego, Ca. Southern Ca. Research Lodge A.A.S.R., Valley of San Diego May Brotherly Love forever prevail, and every moral and social Virtue cement us. If you can read this, you have gone too far! Date: 11-28-96 (06:01) Number: 1815 of 1816 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rogeri@netcom.com, ROGER INGERSOLL Subj: Re: ALL GOOD MEN Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Message-ID: Organization: Freemasonry on the Internet BROWSER (EUS.EUSJIMB@MEMO.ERICSSON.SE) wrote: : I believe that everyone one of you, like my dad was, are good men. You : are upstanding in the comunity and truly one to be admired for your : morals and basic teachings. My only concern is that some of the things : I must do after joining must be shared with me prior to joining so that : I may know the truth and make a proper decision based on it. Nothing will be asked of any man that in any way would detract from his family ties or his personal religious beliefs. After a Man joins, he must (at least in Texas) learn the required memory work. After he has been raised to the Sublime Degree of a Master Mason, he must pay his dues each year to remain a member. Thats about it, for what he must do. Roger Ingersoll -- | rogeri@netcom.com |\ Dallas, TX 8*<%%%%%%%%%|+>-===================================================----- |/ Home of "Freemasonry on the Internet" | http://www.chrysalis.org/masonry/ Date: 11-26-96 (02:32) Number: 1823 of 1832 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: hypnosis@pacbell.net, EUGENE GOLDMAN · Subj: Re: I'd like to join Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: His personal offices Message-ID: <329a5562.3044987@pbinews.pacbell.net> Reply-To: hypnosis@pacbell.net On Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:30:03 -0800, JIM BUTLER wrote: >If you are a Christian, please read your Bible carefully before joining >this Cult. Pray and ask God's will in your life. Don't take the >Hideous oaths. If you are a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Amish, Quaker, or Wiccan, please read your Sacred Writings carefully before making any decision to be associated with any group. Pray and ask G-d's will in your life. Don't take any other person's word for what is and is not a cult, or what is or is not the right thing for you to do. Read, study, pray, and understand *for yourself* what is the proper thing to do. Be especially careful to avoid associating with individuals who would presume to tell you what is right and what is wrong. You know for yourself, through study and prayer, what to do. Don't follow the hate-filled, evil-obsessed, dictatorial, dark side of the antis. Be well. Travel with a light heart. Eugene Goldman P.·. M.·. Date: 11-29-96 (06:06) Number: 1832 of 1832 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jhargrav@rmii.com, JEFF HARGRAVE Subj: Re: More Questions Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Rocky Mountain Internet Inc. Message-ID: <57lule$f7t@natasha.rmii.com> bb101@sprynet.com (Tony Rini) wrote: >Dear Masons, > First I'd like to thank all of you who have been gracious enough >to provide me with some serious answers. > Second, I'd like to wish everyone a HAPPY THANKSGIVING..Let's >try to remember what this day symbolizes (in USA anyway), tolerance of >people different than you, man helping man in the most basic of needs, >and a hearty gratitude for the things God has seen fit to bestow upon >us. > And third will any bonefide mason please answer these questions?: >1.)What is discussed or really happens in the meetings? ( What do you >guys do in those meetings?) Personal experiences are welcomed. Most of the time, these meetins are just like meetings of other organizations. We read the minutes, pay the bills, read the correspondence, etc. The only time we do anything different is when a person receives one of the 3 degrees. Then we do the ritualistic degree work. >2.)What type of social gatherings are common for masons to participate >in? We have dinners (both with and without our wives), we have trips, we have picnics. Just this last month, my Royal Arch Chapter brought in a local teacher who had gone to the East Coast of the US to visit several historical sites. He gave a very good lecture with pictures to the members and guests. The types of social gatherings are really only limited by the desires of the presiding officer of the particular group. >3.)If no one is technically higher than Master Mason, why would one >persue higher degrees (i.e. 4th through 32nd degrees)? Good question. You will find that there are as many different answers as there are people who have gone thru those degrees. In my case it was to learn more. You get many good lessons in the first 3 degrees, and you get many more in the others. Certain points are taught in a more striking manner because there is more time to do it. Also I found that teachings that are only mentioned in passing in the first 3 degrees are taught in great detail in the "higher" degrees. >4.)How does someone kinda short on funds but long on energy help >contribute to the local charities? Donate your time. Just because you don't have funds, you can still help. Last weekend, one of my Rainbow Assemblies went down to one of the local charities and spent the morning there filling Christmas stockings, sorting donated food and filling food boxes. In most cases, charities need that kind of help more than just money. >5.)Do all Shriners come from Master Masons? Yes. To be a Shriner, you first have to be a Master Mason, then go thru either the York Rite (be a Knight Templar) or the Scottish Rite (reach the 32nd Degree). After that, you can petition to become a Shriner. >6.)How often are meetings held? That depends. Most Lodges meet once or twice a month. My Lodge holds one regular (stated) meeting a month and once a month for Masonic Education or degree work. Some special Lodges only meet 4 times a year. >7.)How close are the friendship bonds between lodges?,,,,,other >masons?,,,,,offspring fratternities? Most Lodges are friendly with other ones. It is not at all uncommon for Masons to go visiting other Lodges. We all have something in common, and that helps. Also, when a Mason joins other groups: York Rite, Scottish Rite, Eastern Star, etc. he is going to meet members of other Lodges. Many very close friendships spring up because of this. Many of us are also involved in the Youth Groups. We help them where we can, and support them as they need it. The demands of time today, as opposed to 40-50 years ago, mean that most members do not have the time to spend on these that they used to, so most members go to the meetings that they have to and that is it. Some of us, however, do take the time to help the other groups. >8.)What does the apron look like and what does it symbolize? It is white and rectangular. The ritual calls it an "emblem of innocence" and says "Let its pure and spotless surface be to you an ever present reminder of that purity of life and rectitude of conduct, a never-ending argument for higher thoughts, nobler deeds, greater achievements". What that means is that we should try to keep our lives as pure as the white lambskin apron is so that when we pass on and appear before G-d, we have performed no act that we would be ashamed of. >9.)Why is Pike loved by some, yet unacceptable by others?,,,,,any >real KKK connections? Pike was a very educated man, and his writings are an example of his time. He wrote during the 1800's, when the Theosophical movement was at its height. His writings, especially "Morals and Dogma" are full of the Theological thought of his day. This includes almost every mystical system known. Many today do not accept his explanations, and others do. This is typical for Masons - each is left to interpret the symbols for himself. If the person comes into Masonry with an understanding of the "occult" he will have no trouble seeing Kabalistic interpretations in the symbols. If, however, he comes to Masonry with no such understanding, then he will find other interpretations. Pike is much misunderstood and his books are very difficult to follow. I used to think I had a fairly good understanding of basic Theology and Philosophy until I attempted to read some of his books. As for the KKK connections, that may have been true. I don't know. Someone else will have to answer that. >10.)Does anybody have a description o fthe rituals ( >meanings, lessons, symbolizms, etc.)? Or is it better to let be an >unexpected experience? If you want to become a Mason, let it be a surprise. Lessons are better understood that way. If, however, you have no desire to become a Mason, there are books out there (Duncan's Ritual comes to mind) that describe the rituals. The lessons and symbolisms will be found within yourself. The ritual will give a meaning for each symbol, but you are free to accept or reject each one. Each Mason must find his own meaning within the scope of his own experience and religion. >I know a few of these questions have been answered since I started >browsing this NG, so I thought it woulnd't be a bad idea to get more >contributions by other masons, and maybe help someone who is also >seeking. I was interested in Freemasonry so I started coming up with >online reference material , including HERE, and have a good start on >understanding the subject. Please think of the little inquisitve ones >that need your guidance. AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE ( in case you couldn't >read it the other times ) ***** ANTI-MASONS NEED NOT REPLY***** >the foreseeable future.> >Here's to Brandon, another seeker of information!!!! Do not ever go >into anything without looking into it first. I'm compiling that info >for you. Look for it in the next few days. >Peace be with you, >Tony Date: 11-28-96 (16:41) Number: 1846 of 1862 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: yagayagaya@aol.com, YAGAYAGAYA Subj: Re: Free Masonry and public education Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) (1.13) Message-ID: <19961128164300.LAA21674@ladder01.news.aol.com> In article <329CC6D0.4B9F@worldnet.att.net>, Donnell Miller writes: >Subject: Free Masonry and public education >From: Donnell Miller >Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:55:12 -0800 > >Brethren > I have heard that freemasons were in large part responsible for >the development of public education in the USA. I beliec this occured >during the last century. Perhaps this is an area where we could help >this country again. > Does anybody have any references that would help me find out more >of this history. > > Brother Miller- It is true that Masons had much to do with public education particularly as Americans settled the west. Public education was a novel concept in the 19th century, and manyordinary folks never expected their children to learn the basic fundamentals such as reading, arithmatic etc. Perhaps the greatest contribution to learning in these areas was the actual buildings themselves. As Masons moved together, they pooled their resources to build what was for most communities the first public building...i.e. a lodge hall which was often given to the community as their one room school house. Mnay of these individual lodges also paid for the instructors and supplies as needed. I am unfamiliar with any definative text on the subject, certainly there is room here for Grand Lodges to sponsor research into this area. To understand the details you may have to read the minutes of individual lodges across the USA. Of course, in more modern times, Grand Lodges and the appendant bodies are famous for maintaining the tradition with the many scholarships and academic bowls that they sponsor. Perhaps, you should contact the Grand Lodges of each jurisdiction and they will more likely than not be able to provide more information. Fraternally Yours, Torence Evans Ake WPM Arcadia Lodge #1138 Lasnsing, Illinois..now residing in Reading PA Date: 11-28-96 (16:42) Number: 1847 of 1862 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: yagayagaya@aol.com, YAGAYAGAYA Subj: Re: Quality not Quantity Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) (1.13) Message-ID: <19961128164300.LAA21675@ladder01.news.aol.com> In article <57gvgi$i6q@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, mbayrak@gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca (Michael Bayrak) writes: >Lowering standards to increase membership takes away from the essence and >purpose of the organization. What is the point in membership if the >Fraternity's goals had changed? Yes, Brother Bayrak- I must agree with you. As I have posted before on the subject of All Three Degrees in One Day, Masonry was never intended for the masses. There has always been something exclusive about the organization...not due to bigotry or haughtyness...but because it is designed for men of reason and wit to be able to interact and contribute positively in their communities. It is why we take the time and energies to invest the degrees...one candidate at a time... so that the individual Mason gets the full value of their petition. In the most recent issue of Northern Light, there is a lengthy editorial in favor of Illinois' one day classes. WPGM Larry Inglis makes some interesting comments on the raising of 2769 Brothers during WGM Lauden's two years. As I was a Senior Deacon of my Lodge when Br. Inglis was elected, and a Jr. PM when Br. Lauden took office, I know that both men's opinion should be respected and this activity was undertaken with sincere interest in the good of the Craft. However, that does not mean that I agree with it. The idea that men today have more restrictions on their time; and, therefore should be excused from individual degree work is a fallacy. Sure, I work retail with its long and crazy hours, as well as having a wife and two children...but... My father worked a similar job, participated more extensively in his church, had three more children then I and still work for the Symbolic Lodge attaining the position of Grand Marshall for the state of Maryland in 1972. He is still as active as health and ability will permit. To say that my time, now is more valuable than his was when he was raised in 1956 would be a slap in the face. I would be ashamed to behave in such an irresponsible manner. For candidates enterring the Craft today, I strongly urge you to demand that the lodge at whoch you petition give you the attention that you deserve. Take your degrees as they were written and do not settle for anything less. You will find that the Master of your lodge, his officers and the Brethren will gladly perform them for you,. They will further respect your integrity for taking such an active role in your own development; you will learn more, and build lasting friendships that will serve you well in the years to come. Travel Well My Friends, Torence Eavns Ake WPM Arcadia Lodge #1138 Lansing, Illinois...now residing in Reading PA Masonic Forum Director America Online http://members.aol.com/ForumLead/index.html Date: 11-26-96 (12:56) Number: 1864 of 1914 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rao@tiac.net, ROBERT OLIVIER Subj: A New Renaissance? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Channel 1 Communications Message-ID: <329B2F3C.41C6@tiac.net> I must confess that I do not have the honor of being a Mason. I deeply admire and respect the Masons and I would like to become one. Since I am very interested in Freemasonry, I have been reading about it in my spare time. I do not wish to be rude or to criticize anyone in the brotherhood. However, I have made a recent discovery that troubles me and I feel that I must address it. I realize that I may be overstepping my bounds, so I apologize for my critical tone and the possibly non-Masonic nature of my posting. Please realize that it was done through concern and ignorance of the proper methods, not through maliciousness - no slight is intended towards anyone: I read an article called "Freemasonry On The Verge Of A New Renaissance" at a Scottish Rite web site. This article is available at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/supreme_council_sj_usa/dille.htm I agree with much of the article, but there are a few components of it that disturb me. It argues that Masonry will survive only if a few changes are made to the brotherhood: It seems to advocate increasing Masonic membership as an end in itself. It goes on to say that membership is dropping because memorization takes up too much time so young men won't bother to join. It basically claims that the Fraternity must change - through the reduction of proficiency requirements - in order to keep up with the 1990's. I browsed around the site a bit and saw that there seems to be a general consensus among Masons that things must change, with some Masons advocating soliciting for members, cutting down on memorization requirements, allowing cipher-books, and eliminating the 28 day waiting period between degrees. I realize that there are probably many deliberations that I am unaware of that have led to these conclusions, but something about this really bothers me. Is it possible that this line of thinking is chipping away at the foundation of the Brotherhood? All of the elements that are viewed as "problems" are each a fundamental part of Masonry and were originally instituted for a reason. Much of the rest of society is compromising its standards in light of an overall decline in morality, integrity, trust, and other traditional values. It is giving in to the disease. Based on my limited knowledge, I had been under the impression that one of the purposes of Masonry is to provide a non-compromising haven and source for these values until such time as society again seeks them out. If there were very few people of "good character" on the planet, would Masonry lower its "good character" requirement in order to attract more members? Based on what little I know of Masonry, I would guess that it would not. I am in the midst of reading "The Masonic Way of Life," a collection of addresses by Joseph Earl Perry, 33rd degree, Grand Master of Masons in Massachusetts, 1938, 1939, and 1940. I highly recommend this book, and thought that a few selections from it might serve as good reminders. Regarding membership-drives, the "updating" of Masonry, and the easing of the workload: "Whether Masonry shall survive the distractions and competitions of these modern times may well depend on the clearness with which we recognize our proper sphere, the importance we ascribe to that sphere, and the fidelity with which we meet the challenge. No great leader ever won loyal support by minimizing the sacrifices he would demand of his followers. No great cause ever prevailed except as it demanded consecration on the part of its adherents. "That is the reason why the real leaders of Freemasonry have tried to emphasize quality of membership rather than numbers. That is the reason why Freemasonry shuns publicity, and why it forbids its membership or its principles to be perverted to mercenary or selfish purposes. Nothing must be allowed to detract from its high purpose or confuse its objectives. "... Our teachings are the crystallization of the spiritual wisdom of all ages and all races..." Keep in mind that these "teachings" are not just the catechsims, rituals, and words, but also **the ways in which they are taught**. From his address at the dedication of a new Masonic Hall: "The significant thing is that we have tested this building by pre-established and inflexible standards. The square is a very old-fashioned thing and a very unyielding thing. It makes no compromises to mere up-to-dateness or popularity." From an address relating the origins of the Freemasons: "Here then were the original Masons - men who were of the Christian faith, who possessed substantially all the wisdom then known in the arts and sciences, who preserved their wisdom as trade secrets, and who developed great skill and had high standards of integrity in their workmanship. They were careful to admit to their craft only men who could be trusted to do honest work, and these they put through long training ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ with gradual promotions from apprentices to master ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ workmen. Theirs was a hazardous calling. Many were the widows and orphans who needed help. Many a worthy brother needed counsel or financial or other assistance. Above all, the finest individual integrity was imperative, so a progressive ^^^^^^^^^^^ course in morals and ethics was developed. They were, withal, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ a goodly fellowship of congenial comrades." Notice the terms "long training" with "gradual promotions" and the "progressive course" designed to lead to the finest level of individual integrity. "Progressive" is not used here in it's modern context of "weighted" (as in, "a progressive income tax"), but in it's traditional meaning of something that moves or travels from one location to the next. So a "progressive course" is a journey. Obviously, the destination of that journey is very important, but the journey itself even moreso. As I said before, the 28-day waiting period is for a reason. Perhaps it is to allow the student time on his journey, to meditate upon what he has so far learned - letting it take root, possibly strengthening his knowledge in preparation for the next level. Having a high-level degree is not an end in itself. The journey that one had to go through in order to get there is what makes it significant. Another argument for the "updating" of requirements is that since most men are now too "busy" to spend time memorizing and don't want to be bothered with it, memorization requirements should be lowered. If something is learned quickly, it will be forgotten quickly. A strong foundation must be built slowly, so that it will last and not be weak from rushed, shoddy workmanship. The finest level of individual integrity can not be rushed - achieving it is a slow, step-by-step journey. "Freemasonry never solicits members. No one is ever asked to become a Mason. Anyone who wishes to join must make the first advance and apply for admission, for the Fraternity has no interest in a large membership as such, but is interested only in the quality of its members." --- Date: 11-28-96 (15:30) Number: 1868 of 1914 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: DWWEST1@IX.NETCOM.COM, DWWEST1 Subj: Brother George Washington Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Netcom Message-ID: <329eafc0.28678555@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NATIONAL DAY OF THANKSGIVING PROCLAMATION GEORGE WASHINGTON OCTOBER 3RD, 1789 WHEREAS it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor... NOW, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the twenty- sixth day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these United States... THAT we then may all unite unto him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; FOR the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed... AND also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions, to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually, to render our national government a blessing to all the People, by constantly being a government of wise, just and constitutional laws, discretely and faithfully executed and obeyed, to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shown kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord, to promote the knowledge and practice of the true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and Us, and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best. GIVEN under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3rd of October, A.D. 1789. -- George Washington Date: 11-30-96 (15:32) Number: 1890 of 1914 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: bowen@argo.unm.edu, [g bowen] Subj: Re: Statistically speaking. . . Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque Message-ID: <57pk31$9dc@lynx.unm.edu> Peter Dettmann (peter@aardvark.apana.org.au) wrote: : bowen@pegasus.unm.edu ([g bowen]) wrote: : > Unfortunately for your statistical analysis, it assumes the Gospels to : >be accurate and true. For propaganda purposes, this is also its weakness. : >Many critical scholars believe that because the NT was written after the : >fact, and obviously for purposes of propagation of the Christian cult, : Of course I would expect it to be written "after the fact" to describe : what occurred. Most history is done this way, you do not write : history and the act it out. (except in Hollywood). Having said : that, it is also true that in the old testament there are prophesies : of the Messiah, and these are written before the fact so I guess they : must be more acceptable to you? :) Not if you suppose the Gospels, etc., were deliberately written to characterize Jesus as the foretold Messiah, and especially if He postured to make them fit Him. : There is actually no serious argument here as there are also very : competent critical scholars who disagree with the theory of a : malicious invention of history to propagate a Christian cult. So it : is really important to look carefully and not just assume that your : 'critical scholars' are right, because if they are not, then a very : radical reevaluation of your philosophy would be essential.. Actually I was being neutral as to who was "right". Just pointing out that the statistical analysis is on shakey ground as far as historical scholarship is concerned, since there is an assumption of scientific validity to the stats. given. So also, if a prophesy is written in hindsight, what value does it really have? When there is a prophesy of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, a critical scholar would say it was written after they were destroyed (70 CE.). Thus they date Mark at about 75 CE, with other factors also involved. I agree with your last statement, but must point out that they do use valuable tools of analysis that are overlooked (and perhaps despised) by those who completely take the naive approach. Furthermore the competition between the various groups of "Christians", just after the events of the crucifixion, etc., are also ignored. Each claimed they had the "truth", but in the end it was Paul's group that outlasted history, and so we have the NT as we know it, and Christianity as we know it. Even that process in the first few centuries depended on very literal minded clergy. We really have no way of knowing if what we now have is what was originally intended. What we believe as Christians boils down to faith. : However my opinion is that this discussion actually has no real : bearing on Freemasonry, as Freemasonry deals with moral rectitude etc, : and does not offer a means to salvation. But the question of the : truth and meaning of Christianity affects everyone whether a Freemason : or not. Agreed! Maybe this discussion will help certain Christians better understand why Masons want to be tolerant. Nobody would get out of the free-for-all without black eyes, bloody noses or worse. IT ISN'T WORTH IT! : Peter Dettmann Best wishes, Rick Reade, Hiram 13 AF&AM, Albuquerque, N.Mex, USA Date: 11-30-96 (09:17) Number: 1894 of 1914 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: acacia@rmc1.crocker.com, ACACIA PRESS, INC Subj: Pope John Paul I (resend) Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Crocker Communciations (crocker.com) Message-ID: IN GOD'S NAME by David A. Yallop Copyright 1984 by Poetic Products Ltd. Prologue: "The spiritual leader of nearly one-fifth of the world's population wields immense power: but any uninformed observer of Albino Luciani at the beginning of his reign as Pope John Paul I would have found it difficult to believe that this man truly embodied such power. The diffidence and humility emanating from this small, quiet, 65-year-old Italian had led many to conclude that this Papacy would not be particularly noteworthy. The well-informed, however, knew differently: Albino Luciani had embarked on a revolution. On September 28th, 1978 he had been Pope for thirty-three days. In little more than a month he had initiated various courses of action which, if completed, would have a direct and dynamic effect upon us all. The majority in this world would applaud his decisions, a minority would be appalled. The man who had quickly been labelled 'The Smiling Pope' intended to remove the smiles from a number of faces on the following day. [SNIP] It was by any standards a dramatic reshuffle. It would set the Church in new directions; directions which Villot, and the others on the list who were about to be replaced, considered highly dangerous. When these changes were announced there would be millions of words written and uttered by the world's media, analysing, dissecting, prophesying, explaining. The real explanation, however, would not be discussed, would not be given a public airing- there was one common denominator, one fact that linked each of the men about to be replaced. Villot was aware of it. More important, so was the Pope. It had been one of the factors that had caused him to act: to strip these men of real power and put them into relatively harmless positions. It was Freemasonry. The evidence the Pope had acquired indicated that within the Vatican City State there were over 100 Masons, ranging from Cardinals to priests. This despite the fact that Canon Law stated that to be a Freemason ensured automatic ex-communication. Luciani was further preoccupied with an illegal masonic lodge which had penetrated far beyond Italy in its search for wealth and power. It called itself P2. The fact that it had penetrated the Vatican walls and formed links with priests, bishops and even Cardinals made P2 anathema to Albino Luciani. [SNIP] Over at least three of these men lurked the shadow of another, Licio Gelli. Men called him 'Il Burattinaio'- the Puppet Master. The puppets were many and were placed in numerous countries. He controlled P2 and through it he controlled Italy. In Buenos Aires, the city where he discussed the problem of the new Pope with Calvi, the Puppet Master had organised the triumphant return to power of General Peron - a fact that Peron subsequently acknowledged by kneeling at Gelli's feet. If Marcinkus, Sindona or Calvi were threatened by the various courses of action planned by Albino Luciani, it was in Licio Gelli's direct interests that the threat should be removed. It was abundantly clear that on September 28th, 1978, these six men, Marcinkus, Villot, Calvi, Sindona, Cody and Gelli had much to fear if the Papacy of John Paul I continued. It is equally clear that all of them stood to gain in a variety of ways if Pope John Paul I should suddenly die. He did. Some time during the late evening of September 28th, 1978 and the early morning of September 29th, 1978, thirty-three days after his election, Albino Luciani died. Time of death: unknown. Cause of death: unknown. I am convinced that the full facts and the complete circumstances which are merely outlined in the preceding pages hold the key to the truth of the death of Albino Luciani. I am equally convinced that one of these six men had, by the early evening of September 28th, 1978, already initiated a course of action to resolve the problems that Albino Luciani's Papacy was posing. One of these men was at the very heart of a conspiracy that applied a uniquely Italian solution." ######################### Acacia Press, Incorporated http://www.crocker.com/~acacia/index.html PO BOX 154, Montague, MA 01351 Date: 11-30-96 (14:41) Number: 1899 of 1914 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: zinck@sentex.net, MARTY ZINCK Subj: Fundamentalists Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sentex Communications Message-ID: <32A08DE0.33F1@sentex.net> Literalists take the creation account literally, but we have to ask which account they are talking about. They condemn the Pope for accepting evolution and thus rejecting what the Bible says about it. His Holiness may not need my support, but my Catholic friends will be happy to see me on the Pontiff’s side for a change. In Genesis 1, humans are created on the last day of creation and male and female are created at the same time. In Genesis 2, which is the older account, man is created early in the week before the animals and woman does not appear until the end of the week as an after-thought. You can't have it both ways if you take it literally. Literalists will have to believe that according to Genesis, the earth is flat. But astronauts have brought us back pictures, not of a flat earth in the midst of waters, but of a beautiful blue and white globe swimming in space. Genesis says there is a skydome over the earth holding up the waters that are above, and that are underneath the earth there are also waters. In the flood story in Genesis 7, the skydome opened and the waters pour down while the waters under the earth surge upward. The covered the mountains to the depth of 18 cubits. To cover Mt. Everest, the waters would have to be five miles deep. And where did these waters go when the flood finally abated. The amount of water upon the earth is a constant value, whether it is as water, ice, or atmosphere. Joshua is said to have made the sun stand still so he could kill more Amorites, which is a _very_ moral reason. But it is the earth that moves around the sun and if he was able to get the earth to stop turning on its axis, the force of gravity would have hurled everthing on the earth, that was not nailed down, flying out into space. The sun does not rise and set, no matter what the Bible says. The Literalists problem does not end with the Old Testament. Read the resurrection stories of Jesus at the end of the four Gospel to find out who was in the empty tomb --one or two men, one or two angels? And who got there first? and who saw the Christ first? and was it in Jerusalem or Galilee? It is said that Jesus ascended into heaven. But if He did ascend through the skydome at the speed of Light, 186,000 miles per second, He would not yet be at the edge of our galaxy. If these questions disturb you, don't take my word for it, just read the first two chapters of Genesis and then make two lists of the order of creation. Then go on to the Gospels and do the same with the birth stories and the resurrection accounts. Put them side by side and see the contradictions. Thinking people have no trouble with these problems, but if you still do, I suggest you get Bishop John Spong's book, Rescuing the Bible from the Fundamentalists, and work your way through it. And when you've done that, I'll suggest a tougher one. In his final book, The Merry Heart, the late Robertson Davies writes, "The Bible, which has now sunk to the level of a book of admonition and law in the hands of the people who profess to take it literally, remains perhaps the greatest compendium of history, philosophy, and faithful reflection available to us." I agree. The Bible has influenced my life more than any other book and it continues to do so. Its good influence over me increased greatly after I stopped taking it literally. It is not the liberals, but the literalists, who cause the Bible to be neglected by so many people in our day. The Fundamentalists _are_ the Anti-Christ they fear! Date: 12-01-96 (00:34) Number: 1907 of 1914 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jot@visi.com, J OTTO TENNANT Subj: Re: Quality not Quantity Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: (missing) Message-ID: <57qjr3$3tg@darla.visi.com> yagayagaya@aol.com writes: >In article <57gvgi$i6q@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, mbayrak@gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca >(Michael Bayrak) writes: >>Lowering standards to increase membership takes away from the essence and >>purpose of the organization. What is the point in membership if the >>Fraternity's goals had changed? >Yes, Brother Bayrak- > I must agree with you. As I have posted before on the subject of All >Three Degrees in One Day, Masonry was never intended for the masses. There [... text deleted ...] > The idea that men today have more restrictions on their time; and, >therefore should be excused from individual degree work is a fallacy. [... more text deleted ...] A couple of points. A few years ago, during my failed experiment with marriage, on a snowy day I would remark to my step-children that my father walked to school _every single day_, regardless of the weather, sometimes through two feet of new snow; and that I saw no reason why they could not walk a few of blocks to the school bus stop. (Of course, having heard this often before, my step-children would remind me that my father lived across the street from the school.) This is not completely off the point. When I was growing up, my father's Lodge was only (.... I'm counting ....) seven blocks away: easy walking distance. The lack of a _center_ in many suburbs, and the decay of urban centers, does have a psychological effect beyond simple demands on time. This does change things, and, to some extent, we need to change to follow. (On the other hand, a Lodge I know of failed to accomodate a candidate who objected to the time of the EA degree because it was his bowling night; there are priorities, and this candidate clearly did not have his in order.) Yet I do not think that the various solutions put forward to increase membership constitute "lowering standards." A Grand Master's Lodge to create Masons at sight is clearly within the Ancient Landmarks. On the other hand, it will not solve the problem of declining membership. The problem is that there are many fewer men who are already Masons in their hearts. This is a problem which affects not only Masonry but our society. Solve it in society. Locally, you can help solve the problem by talking to your sons and grandsons about Masonry. (My ex-step-son would like to become a Mason --- we talk about it a lot. I pray that he might come to know a Supreme Being other than himself so I can sponsor him.) Globally, let's be active in our respective religious bodies, propogating the faith as we can. The basis of the problem isn't time. The basic problem is that we can't recruit from stupid atheists or irreligious libertines: but those are the bulk of men today. -- J.Otto Tennant jotto@pobox.co m Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit. Date: 11-29-96 (19:46) Number: 1914 of 1914 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: hypnosis@pacbell.net, EUGENE GOLDMAN · Subj: Re: ALL GOOD MEN Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: His personal offices Message-ID: <329f3af1.211350850@pbinews.pacbell.net> Reply-To: hypnosis@pacbell.net On Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:00:48 -0800, BROWSER wrote: >I believe that everyone one of you, like my dad was, are good men. You >are upstanding in the comunity and truly one to be admired for your >morals and basic teachings. My only concern is that some of the things >I must do after joining must be shared with me prior to joining so that >I may know the truth and make a proper decision based on it. Well then it is unlikely that you will ever join. The exact "script" of our ritual cannot be revealed to you before hand because to do so would take the important things out of context, and thereby diminish their impact and effectiveness. It's like this... say you are studying flying. At some point during the lessons, the instructor takes his hands off the controls without telling you so he can then say "see, you were flying this plane yourself for the past ten minutes. You can do it for a lot longer than that now." If he were to tell you in advance "I'm going to take my hands off now" you might lose confidence and never pass your FAA exams. By doing it as a "surprise" there was greater impact and a more effective training technique. Every Candidate is asked many times during his Degrees "Are you willing to procede?" If, at ANY point, he indicates that he is not, he is removed from the Lodge room and the Master will discuss with him his options, objections, and what to do next. This question is asked before EVERY key step, at least once. I have seen cases (rare, but they do happen) where a Candidate says "no" and the Degree cerimony is interrupted right there, on the spot, until the conflict is resolved. If you decide to go ahead, and find anything uncomfortable or objectionable, you can stop things at any time. If you decide to wait until everything is explained in full before hand, you will probably be waiting for the rest of your life. Either way, I wish you the best in whatever you choose to do. Be well. Travel with a light heart. Eugene Goldman P.·. M.·. Blackmer Lodge #442, San Diego, Ca. Black Mountain Masonic Lodge, U.D., San Diego, Ca. Southern Ca. Research Lodge A.A.S.R., Valley of San Diego