Date: 01-01-97 (22:20)              Number: 265 of 273 (Refer# NONE)
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From: WebServer <microtr@microtr.mail.net, MIKE RESTIVO
Subj: Re: JFK on secret societies (resend)
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From: "Mike Restivo" <WebServer <microtr@microtr.mail.net>>
Subject: Re: JFK on secret societies (resend)

M.R. wrote:

>   You are wrong in two ways.  Firstly I'm regularly and honourably
>demitted from my Lodge.  I was a so-called "90 day wonder", in 1982 having
>been Entered, Passed and Raised in three months.  This begs the
observation
>"That is not long enough."  To Masonic propagandists, several lifetimes
>will never suffice to reach the ever raised bar of criteria.  That fellow
>Masons, so-called one day Masons, can be disqualified by the same measure,
>does not enter the myopic mind of those who parrot this line "Not long
>enough."
>
>   I specifically chose the word "philosophy", not minutiae of ritual,
>which circumstancial details can vary spatially and temporally.  What
makes
>*you* think you know about Masonry anyway?  Because you have been exposed
>to some symbols and lectures, have you mistaken the impressions of same
>with the assimilation of the Truth to which they suggest?  Maybe yes,
maybe
>no, but the mere reception of an Initiation does not confer wisdom in and
>of itself.  Rather, it is a door through which the craftsman must enter
and
>apply himself to the exemplification of the truths which have only been
>briefly and superficially displayed to him.

Marc Dunlop replies:

M.D.<<Hi Mike....

An interesting reply! While I am happy to listen to your point of view
(even though I dont agree with it) I cannot help thinking that there is
no difference between you and the "All in one day" masons.>>

  Of course not, according to your prejudice, which defines a Mason in
proportion to the length of time of his active Lodge participation.  Does
the Third Degree of the Blue Lodge mean nothing to you?  Masons of one or
two years experience, even five to ten, are but unlettered juveniles
compared to Masonic graybeards possessed of 20+ years of service according
to your criteria.  Who are you to judge who is or is not a Mason among
those who regularly received the Initiations of the Craft?  Your elitism is
showing.   "Well there are Masons, technically, but then there are the true
blue Masons."  Is that your belief?  Who are they?  WASP's only?  How many
years active service do you have?

M.D.<<Having not had sufficient time between entering, passing and raising
you
miss alot of the "social learning" that takes place, where (if you are
interested in finding out more information and the meaning of the
ritual) you ask questions. It is this time where you can also ponder
what Freemasonry is about. What has escaped you is that (I can only
speak about UGLE) everyone gets out of masonry what they put into it.
This in my experience falls into the following catagories:

        Friendship based on a common interest
        Religeous - getting moral guidance
        Being part of a team
        Meeting new people who have something in common

Even then....ask a mason what Freemasonry it is all about and you will
get a myriad of answers..This sort of proves my point.>>

   I have over 25 years' study of esoteric subjects, including Freemasonry
and Orders beyond it and knew what it is *supposed* to be, just as I know
what Christianity is supposed to be.  The difference between a declaration
of ideals and their
exemplification often leaves much to be desired.  Anyone learns by studying
asking questions, and demanding they be answered, not by dumbly following
along under peer pressure or benumbing one's conscience.  You presume that
I partially understand the Order.  I not only understand, but recognize
when its ideals are not being followed.  One would be better served to join
a social club for friendship or a service club for benevolent work.  One's
house of worship is a good place to work in tandem with others of like
interests and faith to boot.  Religious guidance and supplement is best
obtained there also.  Freemasonry has no mandate to inculcate any Religious
teaching, either explicit or implied.  Some Masons project their wish that
the Lodge substitute as their church in a manner of fashion.  This is not
the intent of the Order, as the Ritual exposures of the Craft and AASR (SJ)
will attest.

M.D.<<To wit:

I am dissapointed in your proposer and seconder. (I assume you had one?)
They obviously failed in their duty to properly inform you as to the
principles and objectives of Freemasonry. To prove a point (no point
scoring intended) Perhaps you can tell us what you think they are? I
would also be interested to hear from you about the symbolism when you
were entered.>>

My understanding does not differ from that of the exposures.  Does yours?
My obligation does not allow me to explicitly discuss the Craft rituals.
That's why I direct inquiries to the exposures.  Nice try, but no bite.

M.D.<<Dissapointed too in that some areas of the craft (no names, no pack
drills), the honour of masonry has been sacrificed at the expense of new
members. It's a shame that you now have the opinions that you do and I
feel saddenned that the members of the lodge have let you and themselves
down.>>

   Yes...see what happens when you let wops into the Lodge, all to soon
they go crawling back to their Roman Catholic apostasy, under the Whore of
Babylon in the Vatican.  I left Freemasonry because I could no longer
associate with an organization that could so easily accomodate episodes of
racism within its ranks.  Your oily comments confirm that I made the
morally right decision.

M.D.<<You may feel justified in having these opinions and to a large extent
I
sympathise.

Still, it is interesting to hear your views as much can be learned from
your comments to ensure that the "in my heart" response is not just
another learnt reply.>>

   More syrupy leavening.  Is the thrust of the dagger any less painful
when the attacker smiles?

M.D.<<Perhaps a reminder to all who read this:

"Be very cautious whom you recommend as a candidate for membership: one
false step on the point may be fatal. If you introduce a disputatious
person confusion will be produced which may end in the dissolution of
the lodge. If you have a good lodge, keep it select. Great numbers are
not always beneficial". - Dr Oliver

Keep up the good work ...perhaps some may see the lesson eventually!

--
Marc Dunlop
SW - Crogdaene Lodge 5334 (ugle)>>

  You, like other propagandists, can't resist instructing your fellow
Masons, as if they were not capable of independent and critical thought
themselves.  Posting another's elitist and exclusionary views does not make
yours and his any less bigoted, notwithstanding euphemisms like
"disputatious", "select", "false step may be fatal", which fail to conceal
the racism of which they are the metaphors.

† Semper Fidelis et Vigilantis,
   Mike Restivo



Date: 01-01-97 (22:20)              Number: 266 of 273 (Refer# NONE)
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From: WebServer <microtr@microtr.mail.net, MIKE RESTIVO
Subj: Restivo and the Magi    1
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<<Mike Restivo wrote  .....

>This agrees with Pike's observation about Freemasonry needing >secrecy.
An informed public, or informed membership for that >matter, is not in the
Order's best interest.

Pike read much into the symbolism of masonry, and although he was an
extraordinary Cabalist and symbolist, his views were and are his own.>>

This is of course true for every one with an opinion, valid or not.  Not
everyone however is attributed with establishing the AASR(SJ) in the form
as it is currently, in contradistinction to the Rite of Perfection from
which it descended.  As Soverign Grand Commander and author of the Rite's
Rituals under his life time term of office, it is no exaggeration to admit
that Pike *was* the Scottish Rite, "finding it in a log cabin and leaving
it in a temple..."  Subsequent revisions of the Rite in both Jurisdictions
witness that the Rite is not set in stone, but is capable of change which
is of no necessity to be in lock step with the writings of its prior
leaders.

<<>While Christendom dozes in the pews or lapses deeper into >apostasy, the
minions of the New Age are ramping up mightily to >provide the education to
a new generation of children who will be >conditioned and lead by example,
impression, symbol and
>metaphor into Humanistic-Existentialist philosophies

Yes. It is inevitable.>>

Some would say necessary.

M.R.<<> in which God is unnecessary to the one who achieves the Gnosis
>(Enlightenment, like Nirvana) or in Naturalistic terms, as I call it, >the
Will to Power  (Hedonism/Epicureanism).>>

A.S.<<Now your ignorance of the Gnosis is showing. One who achieves Gnosis
is more aware of the God in everything.>>

  Not necessarily ignorance, but a different perspective.  That a different
view may be obtained is not considered may itself betray a narrower world
view, than is claimed.  "The Gnosis" may be used as a synonym for "Samadhi"
or "Nirvana" in a general way.  "Gnosis", as I use it, is a "process", seen
from a Hermetic/Alchemical view; not necessarily a lightning flash of
illumination, but a gradual transfiguration (transmutation) of
consciousness.  My point was to juxtapose the lofty definition and object
of Enlighenment, whatever be its name, and the substitution of an inferior
definition and object by those who should know better.  In time, the
possibility suggested by the Greater Mysteries, will be described as myth
or fable by those who are content with spiritual mediocrity.

   Actually, in Oriental terms, there is no "everything".  There is only
illusion and God, the at- one-ment with which, pantheism (i.e. "God in
everything" as opposed to polytheism or "many gods") is a major step.

M.R.>>I believe that non-Masons observe in Masons the attitude or >culture
of learned occultists, at least of theory if not of practice (like
>myself).  "Masons read a lot of esoteric stuff...they would know >where to
get materials of arcane lore..." goes the thinking, not in so >many words,
but non-Mason individuals with an occult inclination >recognize or sense in
Masonry a body of kindred spirit, which spirit >is that of this world and
of the astral plane (i.e. the 2nd heaven, >which is the dwelling place of
demons, spirits, elementals, psychic >phenomena, etc.).>>

A.S.<<This spirit of sub-consciousness or Yesod (i.e. the 2nd heaven, which
is the dwelling place of demons, spirits, elementals, psychic phenomena,
etc.), is common to every human being on the planet.

Those wishing to explore the deeper recesses of the mind need some sort of
guidance. The reason they sense a body of kindred spirit is due to the
sub-conscious link they are wishing to explore.>>

Obviously, if only from a psychological point of view.

M.R.<<>It is Satan who has dominion over the world, but in their egotism,
>vanity and blindness (a spiritually deadly mix of imperfections)  >Masonic
intitatives are oriented to the task of making desolate the  >Temples of
Religion and placing themselves there in.>>

A.S.<<Here you sound like a typical Fundamentalist. Satan is a creation of
the Christian Church. Yalaboath is a creation of the Sethian Gnostics. They
both intepret this entity wrongly.>>

You have made assumptions about the definition of satan.  Do not confuse
metaphor with literalism just because others have used a word which has
certain traditional meanings attatched.  Best to ask, "And what do *you*
mean by Satan?", then after digesting nomenclature, one is in a better
position, a position of knowledge, to render a conclusion or observation.
"One who rushes to judge probably will judge wrongly " - Restivo.

Some, even Evangelicals, believe that satan is an anthropomorphism of the
base elements of man.

M.R.<<>All in all this constitutes a test, the separation of the sheep who
>follow the Good Shepherd, or the goats, who follow their own lusts,
>whatever the source of such cravings may reside, on earth or in  >Hell.>>

A.S.<<Wrong again. Hell is a creation of the inaccurate translation of the
Bible.  It may be worth noting that, in the Old Testament, GeHinnom is
simply a place name, the Valley of Hinnom. Only in the New Testament is the
Greek word "yeevva" translated as "hell" or "hellfire".  The valley of
Hinnom, ancient Jerusalem's garbage dump and crematorium for criminals and
the poor; hence by extension or analogy, Hell.>>

Christian ideas about Hell are derived from sources other than the Judaic
one that you have cited.  It is not necessarily a final place of the dead.
Some could say it is a state of mind, in which one is spiritually dead,
separated from God, as you write.  Ignorance/sin is also separation from
God.  One may be in this state and be relatively happy.  The condition
described as "Hell" is meant to convey a state of unhappiness, which can
even attach to the saints, who try not to be disassociated from God's
influence.>>

   Some might consider that the earth is "Hell" and its unregenerated
inhabitants are destined either for simple death or some form of afterlife
only if regenerated.  A Hell of eternal fires and torture does not exist.
Or does it?  Best to live a righteous life, just in case, according to a
"belt and suspenders" form of eschatology.  Salvation *from* death/Hell is
no guarranty of the promises (i.e. "Heaven") of the Kingdom of God, or of
Jesus Christ per the Book of Revelation (Chapters 19-22 KJV) for example.
Salvation is the beginning of the spiritual path.

M.R.<<>"Hell is that state in which one is unable to be satisfied, despite
>complete freedom to indulge in any desire." - Restivo.>>

A.S.<<Wrong again. "Chained in darkness"  IMHO hell is separation from God,
hence, Gnosis, the Knowlege of God, is the anti-thesis to the earthly
existance. The "test" however is not whether or not the soul will seek "the
Light", but how he will deal with his fellow man, while he is immersed in
his various incarnations.>>

It may be wrong according to your paradigm.  I have several definitions of
Hell.  I chose one with a different and thought provoking orientation.
Even the animals do not make war upon themselves as humans do.  Outside of
spiritual considerations, to a student of the book of nature, mankind lives
far short of its beliefs.  Mankind is judged to a higher criteria than even
the animals.  How greater then is Humankind's collective shame.

M.R.<<>I observe then, when one feels "unsatisfied" with Christianity and
>yearns to "expand the consciousness" before other altars and  >through
other gospels, however Christian they may appear, one >has already
commenced on the downward slide to perdition.  In his  >heart he or she has
sinned already:

A.S.<<I observe that many people run to religion like children run to their
mommy for forgivness. In many cases it has nothing to do with a search for
religious truth, but a need to be protected from the big bad world. or
satan who incidently is a name taken from the planet Saturn, which in
Hebrew is Sator. (The Key of Solomon)>>

  The word "satan" comes from the Hebrew "shaitan"/adversary.
Saturn/saturnus, a Latin term, refers to sowing seed.  Now although I don't
know if "Sator" is Hebrew for "Saturn", "SATOR" reminds me of something
else.  One must not be satisfied with superficialities, so I'll develop
this idea further.  I note also your hint regarding "Key", note also this
period of the Winter Solstice and the Rites of Ceres/Tamuz:

   SATOR is a modified anagram of ROTA, itself an anagram of TARO (ie.
Tarot cards, a Christiano-Alchemical-Kabbalistic set of keys) and TORA.  I
leave to one's meditiation a review what books like Waite's _Pictorial Key
to the Tarot_ and _The Magical Ritual of the Sanctum Regnum_ have written,
much better than I, on their subjects.  The second Trump card
(Waite/Coleman deck), "The High Priestess" holds a scroll called "TORA", a
reference to the Torah of the Hebrew Bible, and metaphorically, to the
revealed word of God in pure form.

Trump card number 10, "Wheel of Fortune", gives "ROTA", a Torah allusion,
but more, in one of the visions of Ezeckiel and troduces the Apocalyptic
four animals of the New Testament.

A.S.<<as a subscriber to alt.freemasonry,  i have noticed that we have many
posters who wish to free us from the lies of the world and teach us about
the truth of the "word of god". it is unfortunate that many of those who
would lead us to him, have only an emotional understanding of he is, was or
where he came from.>>

Assuredly so.  That is why the Initiate, on balance, must apply vision
(theory/study) to leadership (practice/instruction) for the good of
mankind.

A.S.<<All opinions expressed herein are my own and have nothing
to do with Masonry or Christmas.>>

I beg to differ on both counts.  "Let he who has ears to here, let him
hear."

<<Mike Restivo wrote  ......

>By focusing upon religious criticism of the Order, the strongest and >most
general purpose evaluation can be undertaken.  The
>conclusions, relating to one's spiritual convictions, are of personal
>import to everyone, if only out of curiousity.  In short, when a >debate
appears to be about "somebody else's problem" it gets less >attention than
one that personally relates to the reader.>>

A.S.<<To embark on a religious criticism of the Order is to criticize all
religions on the face of the earth. Would it not be prudent to bite off
only as much as you can safely chew?>>

  In terms of the philosophy of religion, that is true.  In terms of
criticism of a teaching and use of Christian Relics, Rites and Rubrics in a
manner not intended by Christianity itself, it is another matter
altogether.  It is not an argument of  "Who's religion is better, that of
the pagans, philosophers or Christians?" but one of the *misrepresentation*
of a religion, Christianity.  To Christians, paganism is another belief to
which they may (must?) evangelize.  Now a paganism *masquerading* as a
Christian thing is a different beast (Cf. Rev.).  This is heresy (to them),
which fires Christian apologists to argue against it.

M.R.<<For a long time I dismissed the resurrection teaching contained, it
is alleged, in the Third Degree.  By its own account, no allusion is  made
to the resurrection...of Jesus Christ,>>

A.S.<<The allegory of the ressurection of the founder of the christian
religion _is_ an allusion to the ressurection of Horus to Osirus.>>

You are projecting your conclusions based upon your understanding of the
allegory.  The Craft Ritual explicitly does not imply this.  Furthermore,
appendant degrees like the Royal Arch and some of those of the Scottish
Rite and the York Rite's chivalric degrees remain to speak to this issue
regarding priesthood and regeneration as I perceive them from Pike's
Rituals and the exposures narratives of the allegories and symbols.

M.R. <<>but another ressurection indeed *may* be alluded to, specifically
>1 Kings 17:17-24 KJV (and also 2 Kings 4:31-36 KJV).
> Here Elijah, lays upon the dead body of the son of the widow  >("son of
the widow", like "Lewis" is a euphemism for a Mason).>>

A.S.<<This is also a reference to the resurrection ritual of Horus to
Osirus.>>

M.R.<<> He repeats the gesture three times.  The boy is restored to life, >
which sign proves to the widow that Elijah is a man of God.>>

A.S.<<Or the Officers of the Lodge<<

As a sign of recognition or token, yes.

M.R.<<> but anyone curious to compare the Masonic allusions to the Old >
Testament, with the Old Bible itself, will not fail, or rather should > not
fail, to read this account of the ressurrection literally under >Elijah.>>

A.S.<<There will be no profit to read an allegory literally.>>

Yes.  Furthermore, one must take care not to allegorize writings to the
obfuscation of their literal content.  Feud wrote that "Sometimes a cigar
is just a cigar" and not necessarily a phallic symbol.  One's wisdom is
exemplified in the appropriate application of metaphorical and literal
interpretation of material.

M.R.<<>  The message that is available to the mind of a sympathetically >
disposed Mason, is that to one who has been granted the
> priviledges and powers, through Initiations and inner teachings, of > the
wise men of old, conserved in Masonic Temples, *and
> beyond*, of which the Lodge is merely the nursery as it were, can
<snipped>>>

A.S.<<Here is where i agree with you.>>

M.R.<<>through Initiation, to the "dead" and "blind" dwelling in the >
darkness, have their own salvation and righteousness as
> elect priests like Melchisidech>>

A.S.<<Which is the derived from the names of two pillars.
Melchi or kingly or **** plus Tsedeq or priestly or ****** [The Hiram Key
pge 312]  ISBN0712685790>>

M.R.<<> (a cult symptom of behaviour conditioning).

A.S.<<Is this not true of those who feel that theirs is the only true
religion on the face of the earth as well?>>

Jews, Christians, Moslems, Buddists, etc., may believe in the exclusivity
of their relion, but not necessarily conduct themselves in a manner that
disallows self-criticism.  "A religion that does not allow criticism is
dead already - Paul Johnston from _History of the Jews_, refering to
Christian intolerance and fanaticism).  Religious does not imply
behavioural cultish conditioning.  The latter has little to do with
religion or spirituality, but much to do with psychological bondage and
power transfer from the submissive devotees to their demagogues.

M.R.<<>It seems that the pressure not only from professed Christians, > but
freethinkers themselves is overwhelming the pro-Masonic > forces.  Rather
than argue the facts, retreat seems desirable.>

A.S.<<Religion and politics are not discussed in the Lodge because we show
respect for all religions. Retreat should not be confused with prudence or
respect for all beliefs.>>

One to whom has been exposed the ritualry alone of the AASR (SJ) cannot
escape the conclusion that true Religion, or the philosophy of Religion, is
the one and only subject of the Rite.  Profane discussions like "My faith
is better than your faith." are excluded from the Lodge.

M.R.<<>In short, when a debate appears to be about "somebody else's
>problem" it gets less attention than one that personally relates  >to the
reader.>>

A.S.<<I am giving my attention to your problem, and trying to help.>>

Your contribution is appreciated.

M.R.<<>It is to impress the approval of a self-sufficient priesthood upon
>the Initiate, who, in possession of the Gnosis, at least in theory >or in
potential, has transcended the religion of the profane  >and uninitiated.>>

A.S.<<Selah.>>

"selah", as in "'Stop the music' I agree!"?

A.S.<<All opinions expressed herein are my own and have nothing
to do with Masonry or Christmas.>>

<<Mike Restivo wrote .....

>You see, I can critique myself better and more eloquently  >than the
Masonic dramatis personae with whom I have been
>corresponding.   Consider:

>Dan 11:30-12:13 KJV.  See also my essay
> _Who is the Antichrist?"_ in the Christianity Section>>

A.S.<<I would enjoy this, but alas,  I would not know where to look.>>

  I'll include it here:

Feb. 18, 1996

Who Is The Antichrist?

             by

Mike Restivo, CIS ID # 74347,751

    The belief that, from Dan 11:37, the antichrist will be homosexual, is
not explicitly indicated therein, nor is it explicitly given that the
antichrist will *not* be homosexual.  From the three Bibles' quotes shown
below, one can understand that the antichrist will be uncaring for *who* or
*what* women desire.  It remains that, although indifferent to women's
cares, personal or political, *he* may yet be still attracted to women.
Furthermore, the antichrist may be a heterosexual man who relates to women
only though force of domination, as in rape.  The sexual feelings of the
antichrist towards women are not even implied.  Intellectually, he
considers the concerns/needs of women of no import.  The KJV passage says
that he does not regard the desire of women.  It does *not* say that *he*
does not desire women or that he desires men.  Such an individual may elect
to be celibate.  Given that the other two passages say  he shows no regard
for the one whom women love, the reader is to understand that the
antichrist considers some popular figure among women to be of no concern.


(Dan 11:37 KJV) Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the
desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above
all.
(Dan 11:37 NIV) He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for
the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt
himself above them all.
(Dan 11:37 Jerusalem Bible)  Heedless of his fathers' gods, heedless of the
one whom women love, heedless of any god whatever,he will consider himself
greater than them all.
The phrase "his fathers' gods" refer to the Greek and Roman pagan gods'
archetype.  Also, "the one desired by women" furthermore refers to the
Greek god "Adonis" and/or the Babylonian god "Tammuz". Cf. also:

(Ezek 8:14 KJV) Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S
house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for
Tammuz. (Ezek 8:15 KJV) Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of
man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than
these.

<<TAMMUZ (Tam' muhz)A Sumerian god of vegetation. The worship of Tammuz by
women in Jerusalem was revealed as one of the abominations in Ezekiel
(8:14-15). According to the pagan religion, Tammuz was betrayed by his
lover, Ishtar, and as a result dies each autumn. The wilting of the
vegetation at that time of year is seen as a sign of his death. This caused
great mourning in the ancient world, and was why the women in Jerusalem
wept. See Fertility Cults.>> - Holman Bible Dictionary

<<ADONIS (uh doh' nihs) God of vegetation and fertility with Syrian name
meaning, "lord." Worshiped in Greece and Syria. Rites seem to include the
planting of seeds which quickly produced plants and that just as quickly
wilted in the sun. These were used to symbolize the dying and rising of the
god and to bring blessing upon crops. Similar rites were celebrated for
Osiris in Egypt and possibly for Tammuz in Babylon. REB translates Isaiah
17:10 as "your gardens in honour of Adonis." The Hebrew term appears only
here in the Bible, being related to the personal name Naaman and to the
Hebrew word meaning, "lovely, pleasant, agreeable." Other translations
read, "finest plants" (NIV), "pleasant plants" (KJV), "delightful plants"
(NASB), "sacred gardens" (TEV), "pleasant plants" (NRSV).>> - Holman Bible
Dictionary

    From the descriptions of the words Adonis and Tammuz, I infer that "the
one whom women love" is an archetype of the Lord Jesus Christ, betrayed by
Judas Iscariot.   In the macroscopic sense, He was rejected by the people
to whom He preached (more than just the Jews), save His disciples. Note the
metaphor of  "seed" where it is used:

(Rom 1:1 KJV)  "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle,
separated unto the gospel of God," (Rom 1:2 KJV)  "(Which he had promised
afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)" (Rom 1:3 KJV)  "Concerning
his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David
according to the flesh;" (Rom 1:4 KJV)  "And declared to be the Son of God
with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from
the dead:"

Cf also:

(Gal 3:16 KJV) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith
not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is
Christ.

<<    Besides seeing women as persons, Jesus involved them in His earthly
ministry. Luke mentioned a group of women who traveled with Jesus as He
journeyed from town to town (Luke 8:1-3). Among them were Mary of Magdala,
Joanna, and Susanna. These women provided financial support for Jesus and
the twelve apostles. Women also proclaimed the gospel. In His encounter
with the Samaritan woman, Jesus revealed Himself as the Messiah. She
immediately left and began telling people, "He told me everything I have
ever done" (John 4:39 NRSV). Many Samaritans believed in Jesus because of
the woman's testimony.

    Women were the first at the tomb after the resurrection; and, as such,
they were the first to broadcast His victory over death (Luke 23:55-24:11).
Matthew, Mark, and Luke all called attention to the loyal women who
participated in Jesus' Galilean ministry and followed Him all the way to
the cross and the grave. They shared the greatest news: "He is not here,
but has risen" (Luke 24:5 NRSV).>> - Holman Bible Dictionary

   The Old Testament type figure of Adonis has been fulfilled by its
apotheosis, Jesus Christ, in the New Testament.  The former daughters of
Jerusalem, who wept in idolatry at the then spiritually desolate Jerusalem
Temple, are represented/contrasted in the New Testament by the disciples,
Brides of Christ, in Jerusalem, mourning for the loss of Jesus, including
one at the tomb/Temple/Body of Jesus Christ, Who has brought the seed of
everlasting life into the world:
(John 20:11 KJV)  "But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as
she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre," (John 20:12
KJV)  "And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the
other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain." (John 20:13 KJV)
"And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them,
Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid
him."

Cf. also:

(John 2:16 KJV)  "And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things
hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise." (John 2:17 KJV)
 "And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house
hath eaten me up." (John 2:18 KJV)  "Then answered the Jews and said unto
him, What sign showest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?"
(John 2:19 KJV)  "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple,
and in three days I will raise it up." (John 2:20 KJV)  "Then said the
Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear
it up in three days?" (John 2:21 KJV)  "But he spake of the temple of his
body." (John 2:22 KJV)  "When therefore he was risen from the dead, his
disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the
scripture, and the word which Jesus had said."

Cf. also:

(Rev 12:17 KJV) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make
war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and
have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

<<  The imagery of the bride is used widely in the Bible as a description
of the people of God. In the Old Testament, the prophets presented Israel
as a bride who had committed repeated adulteries (Jer. 3; Ezek, 16; Hos.
3). The prophets also proclaimed that God was faithful to His unfaithful
bride and would restore her (Jer. 33:10-11; Isa. 61:10,62:5). In the New
Testament, the bride imagery is used often of the church and her
relationship to Christ. The bride belongs to Christ, who is the Bridegroom
(John 3:29). In Revelation, the church, as the bride of the Lamb, has
prepared herself for marriage by performing righteous deeds (19:7-8). In
Revelation 21, the great wedding is portrayed with the church prepared for
her bridegroom (21:2,9). Finally, the bride and the Spirit issue an
invitation "to come" (22:17).>> - Holman Bible Dictionary

    At the appearance of the apocalyptic antichrist, with respect to the
phrase "the one whom women love":

    "the one" represents Jesus Christ.  "women" represent a type figure of
the Bride of Christ or faithful remnant.

(1 John 2:22 KJV) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the
Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

End of Text

M.R.<<>For my part, I conceive of personal maturation and crises in

Date: 01-01-97 (22:20)              Number: 267 of 273 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: WebServer <microtr@microtr.mail.net, MIKE RESTIVO
Subj: Restivo and the Magi    2
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

everyone's >spiritual life that metaphorically parallels Biblical events in
their type >context.  Thusly, the End Times pertain to our own lives at a
point(s) of >spiritual crisis, usual the point of no return.>>

A.S.<<I fully endorse this.>>

M.R.<<>If we have not established a publicly professed and continued
>relationship with Jesus Christ while living, there will be no such >grace
to sustain us upon our death, save salvation from perdition, >but not
accrued righteousness (i.e. written in the Book of Life) > worthy of a
place in the Kingdom of God.>>

A.S.<<This dogma is a misinterpretation narrow gate of the
Middle Pillar of Mildness, the effects of which are elucidated in Matt.
7:22.>>

That is according to your viewpoint but Paul speaking of milk for babes and
meat for men explains this, that salvation is just the beginning of
righteousness.

>Mat 25:23 KJV)

This verse states three exact reasons in favour of Masonry.

Better to supply your particular exegesis as I don't see an inference to
mystery schools in this part of the Parable of the Talents.  Nevertheless,
any citation describing goods works can be siezed as an endorsement of
works only philosophies.  Furthermore, the lesson to be learned is akin to
my belief about salvation as a beginning, a Christian Initiation as it
were.  It is intended by the Master that the disciples'/servants faith be
multiplied.  The Holy Spirit aides this process of sanctification in the
faithful who pursure greater rigteousness and at-one-ment with God in
Christian Mysticism, for example.  Freemasonry cannot amplify upon a
Sacrament (the salvation in Jesus Christ) to which it turns away (save some
Chivalric Rites like the C.B.C.S. and K.T.>).

M.R.<<>The only Master that Christians should seek is Jesus Christ.>>

A.S.<<The Hellenistic christos was the Gnosis, not the last name of
Jesus.>>

   "Jesus" is a relatively common Hispanic given name.  Among Evangelicals,
to speak of "Jesus" indiscriminately begs the question, "Is that Jesus of
Nazareth or Jésús of Tiajuana to which you refer?"  The implication being
that "another Jesus's gospel" might be inferenced.
"Christ" of "anointed/golden" is His title, like King of Kings and Lord of
Lords.

M.R.<<>Seek ye no other nor in any other place save from the innermost
>Tabernacle of our own hearts.>>

A.S.<<Again the Gnosis, (knowlege of the shrine in man)>>

The seeker must not confuse the Tower of Bable and antendant references to
Icarus, nor the "Tower" of the Tarot Trumps with the crucible which is
carnal man, who is potentially the Grail Vessel (cup).  Jesus Christ, for
the Christian, is the Lapis Philosophorum to enable the transmutation of
man into his first estate.  This is a principle of Christian Mystical
Alchemy and of the Rose†Croix.  The continued heat under the Holy Spirit
constitutes the sanctification of the seeker in accrued righteousness (i.e.
as a Tzadik, in Chasiddic terms, or mystic in general).

M.R.<<>The three Great Lights of Masonry on the Altar are called the  >Sun,
the Moon and the Master of the Lodge.  When the False  >Prophet (heresies,
cults, apostasies) is exposed, the demonic  >power of evil and its temples,
altars and lights will become  >extinguished at the advance of the Second
Coming of Jesus Christ.>>

A.S.<<Is this true prophesy? or a guess?>>

I re-cast the battle of Amageddon in terms of these passages of Matthew and
Isaiah.  I did not answer your question, however.  Time will tell.

A.S.>The stars that arraign the vaults and canopies of Masonic chambers
are representative of the seven stars _in_  each of us.

The chakras can be explicated or further derived from some Masonic symbols,
like the Serpent/Shakti/Kundalini, but a better development can be made
along Hermetic lines and the Caduceus of Mercury/Rod of Aaron cum Middle
Pillar.  Once more this is an allusion to the Most Puissant, the
Priest/Magus or Royal Adepts as it were.

M.R.<<> will be cast down with their worship of astrology and
>other astral teachings, doctrines of/from demons of the
>astral (i.e. starry) realm.>>

A.S.<<Astrology predates Christianity and IMHO is more relevant. The astral
realm is in your own mind.
The straight and narrow way is the path through the sub-conscious to the
christos, and the knowlege (gnosis) of him.>>

   "The stars (astral plane) may influence man (i.e. subconscious, dreams),
but God controls the stars."

A.S.<<My friend you are an excellent writer and this piece could have been
a lot better if you had cut down the KJV quotes. This version of the VOSL
is a flawed translation of an
incomplete translation. It is dangerous to base salvation
on such an over edited piece of work.

all opinions expressed herein are my own and have nothing
to do with Masonry or Christmas.>>

   The King James Version of the Bible is used as a lingua franca among
Evangelicals, a common source of authoritive reference and foundation of
Christianity.  It is easily available and every Christian possesses one.
References to human spirituality in terms of that book are most readily
understood in context without misunderstanding (in theory!).  As a record
of the psychology and philosophy of religion, that is Man's development of
the Religious impulse, it is a valuable and instructive tool for all
generations, notwithstanding all Bibles' imperfections, either technical or
doctrinal.  In Christian terms, the Bible serves as construction plans from
the Architect.  It is up to the individual to build from those plans
according to one's best understanding of them, lest that person be
criticised as a slipshod craftsman, by more accomplished artisans.

† Fiat Lux,
   Mike Restivo


Date: 01-02-97 (17:13)              Number: 280 of 297 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: WebServer <microtr@microtr.mail.net, MIKE RESTIVO
Subj: Re: 3 Questions for Mike Restivo
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: Microtronics Co. Ltd.
Message-ID: <01bbf8d1$eaed63a0$41fe2499@wordprocessing>

Mr. Morgenthaler,

<<Mike, when you first re-entered the newsgroup *this time, you were
fighting
with
Jeff. It seems that every other post you put here is spoiling to argue and
fight
with the group.  "I ask you why? What is the compulsion you seem to have
that
moves you to promote disharmony within the group and within yourself?" Your
animosity is always present in one form or another.
The organization of freemasonry initiates, passes and raises many people,
some
of which have no business in the fraternity. Can you answer another
question:
"Where were you first prepared to be made a mason?"...and
for my last question: "What are you trying to accomplish on this
newsgroup?"
Sincerely,
Ted Morgenthaler, PM, Central City, Colorado>>


   I was prepared firstly in my heart.  When I found how the Order
prevaricated from its own ideals, I left.  I assuredly have no disharmony
within myself, that is your mischaracterization.  I was not contentious
with Mr. Shaquar, and thanked him for his contributions.  Nor have I
responded with belligerence against the few, all too few, who have left
their unfounded and unprovable accusations outside.  I have no problem with
provable case arguments, but the claims and charges of which you yourself
are an instigator must be dealt decisively.  That involves both stong facts
and strong language.

   Did you see me an active Roman Catholic, arguing with Dr. Firestone?
Essentially, I agree with his remarks about the RC Church.  Fact is fact
and "He who re-writes the evils and errors of history is condemned to
repeat them".  In Cyberspace, persuassion is accomplished by logic and case
evidence, not by force or seleazy tricks.  The preponderance of Masons are
not motivated to post publicly on any matter.  Thusly, in the vacuum of the
silent majority, it is possible for a small group or groups of
self-appointed representatives, in this case of Freemasonry, to pretend to
speak for the Order at large.  This is not possible in the formal,
administrative sense.  Nor is it possible in the global sense, as no one
has abrogated their privileges to speak their own minds, nor licenced a
proxy to speak for them.  The result is that for good or for ill, the
choice is up to the self-promoters, they by default represent the interests
of which they speak.

   You avoid mentioning my defence of the ideals of the Craft, where
charges and comments were shown by me to be un-Masonic by the Order's own
lectures.  I asked you before, and I ask you again, where were you?  I read
you mostly, not exclusively, in the self-appointed role of net-nanny.  I
save all NG posting pertinent to my research, which study is my reason for
reading this NG.  I post to refute the lies that are passed off as some
species of argument, without substantive proof.  Is it your will that
falsehoods of any type be propagated through this NG?

   When exposed to the public, this newsgroup will be beset with any
eccentric with a grudge, both real and imagined.  As I wrote before, that
is the downside of all newsgroups.  Public postings also involve the cost
of accountability to explain their contents to anyone who can prove them a
misrepresentation or a lie.  The honest have no fear of justifying their
public writings also in public.  But what of those Masons who desire more
discretion and privacy.  An email list is best suited.  Is not a feature of
this Newsgroup, the function as a point of presence, by which men,
interested in the Order, may be further directed for information, and that
they may also read positive reports of Masonic activities.  This, and Lodge
web pages, are advertising.  I do not object, but these informational
initiatives' double purpose erode the directive against prosyletizing. In a
private setting, more control is possible, but in public, it is naive, that
any and all propaganda can pass unchallenged and unaccountable.

  A read of the discussions on
http://www.omeganetsys.com/Freemasonry/Fmhome.htm will help answer my
positions.  It is not necessary to repeat that material here.  My
motivation is simple.  Where I can dispell darkness I so do.  But the
darkness received it not.

† Fiat Lux,
   Mike Restivo

Date: 01-02-97 (17:26)              Number: 281 of 297 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: WebServer <microtr@microtr.mail.net, MIKE RESTIVO
Subj: Re: Christianity and Freemasonry
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: Microtronics Co. Ltd.
Message-ID: <01bbf8d3$bc5cb200$41fe2499@wordprocessing>

Mr. Dennis,

  He of the foul mouth on CompuServe.  Post all the lies you want.  Each
one will be refuted as I did on CompuServe.  It is you who seek to turn
dialogue into dung, to hide light from both Masons and non-Masons alike.
People like you give Freemasonry a bad name, with your substitution of
profane language for reasoned dialogue.  Come on, insolent one do your
worst; Defile your apron and this Newsgroup with your writings, that all
may read the warped words of a rogue Mason, especially anyone interested in
joining the Craft.  Shoot your mouth off all you want, you don't hurt me
any more than the buzzing of flies.  Buzz a way, O lord of the flies, the
anti's await to re-post your rants.

† Veritas,
   Mike Restivo

Date: 01-02-97 (05:16)              Number: 282 of 297 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: dsale@users.southeast.net, DAN SALE
Subj: Re: And another boot to the head!
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: Uknown
Message-ID: <5af6vf$37@ns2.southeast.net>

>>> > the master mason degree, the candidate is hit in the throat, the chest an
d
>>> > worst of all, on the forehead with a maul!

The master mason is struck with a blow to the neck, representing the
suppression of speech by the church. He struck in the heart with the
square, representing the suppression of belief by the State. He is
struck on the head with a maul, representing the suppression of
intellect by the masses. Therefore, as the master mason avenges Hiram
Abif, they must strike down the Church, the State, and the freedom of
the masses (According to Illustrations of Freemasonry, 1826.)


Date: 01-02-97 (21:06)              Number: 286 of 297 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: mtavy@mail.zynet.co.uk, GERRY SARGENT
Subj: Re: a question
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: Zynet Ltd
Message-ID: <32CC93D9.21CD@mail.zynet.co.uk>
Reply-To: mtavy@mail.zynet.co.uk

tmorgen wrote:
>
> Gerry Sargent <mtavy@mail.zynet.co.uk> wrote in article
> <32C5EBBD.6D3B@mail.zynet.co.uk>...
> >
> > Dear Bro. Ted,
SNIPPED..
> > Bro. Gerry. Bedford 282, UGLE.
> >
> Dear Gerry,
SNIPPED..
>I hope the
> holidays were good for you and your family and lets pray that 1997
> brings us closer together with a better understanding to accept the
> little differences that we really have.
> Regards, Sincerely and fraternally,
> Ted Morgenthaler, PM, Central City, Colorado
>

Dear Bro Ted,
Thank you for your kind words and kind sentiments expressed towards my
connections.
I enjoy learning about other duresdictions ect; and the problems that
occupy present members minds.
I feel sure that many Americans would be amazed at how little we have to
memorize to enter, pass and be raised in the Craft in comparison to
their  own experiences. I wonder why there is such a difference. Is it
to create greater exclusivity or just the way things have apparently
evolved over the period of time?
There is no written work here nor a need to show that one has reached
the 'required standard' by lectures, etc.
If you or anyone else would like some personal answers I'll try to
oblige - always of course with the understanding that they will be my
views alone, never official, not of neccesity all there is on the
subject or even the 'truth'. I'll strive to be both factual and
truthful, but often the 'truth' is a somewhat moveable feast, depending
on which angle you view it from. What may be 'right' for me may be 'not
right' for others. In those cases we'll withdraw in order, amicably, to
settle our differences, which being happily effected....
Like many, I shall have to strive all my life to receive my greatest
wish - Light!
It was granted to me once, [in a very dramatic way I might add;-)] and
hopefully it will be granted me again.
I look forward Bro. Ted to reading your probable response and that of
other Brothers comments too from across the terrestrial globe.
Fraternal Greetings,
Gerry Sargent.MM. Bedford 282. UGLE.

Date: 01-02-97 (20:41)              Number: 287 of 297 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR  ROGER M  FIRESTONE
Subj: Re: Christianity and Freemasonry 2
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet <info@cais.com>
Message-ID: <5ah6hq$d5b@news2.cais.com>

Mike, old chap, you are not a Mason in the most important sense of the
word (and neither are a lot of members with dues cards, to be perfectly
honest).  You have not really spent the time _inside_ the Craft
following its principles, studying its morality, practicing its
teachings, becoming acquainted with the Brethren, and otherwise _living_
Freemasonry.

You cannot learn to drive a car or fly an airplane by reading about it
in a book.  Reading a racy novel is no substitute for being in love.
And studying Masonry (along with many other topics of philosophy) does
not teach you how to _be_ a Mason.  Having received the degrees of
Masonry only gives you the keys to open the treasure chest in which the
valuable tenets of Masonry are kept.  If you never open those chests,
take out the principles, and _use_ them, they are of no real value, just
as a hoard of gold coins locked up and never spent does no good in the
world either.

You spent barely six months of your life as an affiliated Master Mason.
When I had been a Mason only six months, I was barely beginning my
education in Masonry.  (For that matter, had I stopped learning after
the first six months of my career, I would be totally incompetent in my
professional field.)  Your writings, to the extent that they are
understandable (and you could benefit from some instruction in clearer
expression--remember those arts you were taught as a FC?), don't show
any really solid knowledge of Masonry.

I'm afraid I don't follow your phillippic about Roman Catholicism at
all.  There is no religious test for who is a "true blue" Mason--only a
test of who is willing to exemplify the principles that Masons have
sworn to live by.  A Mason of whatever religion or education who gives
of himself to serve his fellow creatures far outranks the well-read
fop with a dues card who always has an excuse for why he cannot take
part in the work of Masonry (by which I mean far more than the ritual
of conferring degrees).

You, Mr. Restivo, are an unaffiliated (demitted) Mason of some reading.
By what token shall we know that you have truly understood your
obligations and are fulfilling them?

Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH


Date: 01-02-97 (15:04)              Number: 289 of 297 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: nyts@dorsai.org, NEW YORK THEOSOPHICAL SOC
Subj: Re: One Day Masons
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: The Dorsai Embassy, Inc.
Message-ID: <5ah4bo$c3l@amanda.dorsai.org>

Cleatus Estes (tiler@iglobal.net) wrote:
: thehalls@elite.net (Mike Hall) wrote:

: >What an abomination!

: Agreed.

: IMHO, I feel that this is a "watered down" version of the "...to make
: good men better men".  I guess we could call it Cliff's Notes Masonry
: or Masonry Lite.

From Bart Lidofsky:
	The reason why I will never become a Mason (unless I change
drastically) is because I have learned what it means to be a Mason, and I
could not become more than a "fork and knife" Mason, and feel that it
would be hypocritical for me to join (yes, I know that there are many
"fork and knife" Masons who feel fine about it, and are probably not
hypocritical, because they do not realize what they are rejecting, or even
that they are rejecting anything).

	There is a Jewish story about a Rabbi who was walking to a city,
and came to a fork in the road. A child was nearby. "Which is the
shortest way to the city?", asked the Rabbi. The child answered, "The
left fork is the long but short way, and the right fork is the short but
long way." The Rabbi took the short but long way, and soon came within
sight of the city. The road was so covered with brambles, however, that
he could not pass through, and had to backtrack to the fork in the road,
and travel to the city by the left fork, the long but short way.

	I believe that the one day Masons are taking the short but long route.

	Bart Lidofsky


Date: 01-02-97 (22:00)              Number: 290 of 297 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: jbanks@almatel.net, JOHN C  BANKS
Subj: Re: Letter "G"
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: The Lonely Internet Developer
Message-ID: <32cd2f92.3316038@news.almatel.net>


>> I must do an essay of the masonic meaning of the letter "G".
>> Please could you send me some explanation (if you have..)
>> Thanks a lot..
>> Rodrigo A.
>> Fenix Lodge #69

	If you are a true brother, you would know the meaing of the
letter G.  Futhermore, you would know that you could not do what you
propose to do.  You are indeed in search of some of the lights of the
ordrer, but you have not availed yourself for the trials.   Brothers,
I would advise that you not help this person, until his identity and
motives be truly examined.

J. Banks
Senior Warden
Bacon Lodge #56 of Alma



Date: 01-01-97 (10:27)              Number: 299 of 307 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: william.park@bluelodge.org, WILLIAM PARK
Subj: Re: What are the Masons?
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Message-ID: <9701021847379734@bluelodge.org>
Organization: The Blue Lodge BBS - Norwalk, CA. - 310-863-9061


TH>I have a question for this newsgroup.  My husband is getting involved in
TH>the masons, and I'm not sure I entirely approve, as it seems to me to be a
TH>"Boys Club".   I am trying to be fair, so I am asking questions and trying
TH>to find out more about what the Masons are.

TH>Please, without too much ridicule, can some of you help me understand what
TH>the Masons are?

TH>Thank You.

Mam,
There are many sites on the internet that furnish detailed information
on the 'Fraternity', however I will endevor to answer your question.

Freemasonry is an organization for adult males (those past their
majority), that have a belief in a Supreme Being and a 'Life after
death', are of good moral character.  A man must ask to join in almost
all locations (a few jurisdictions have recently begun allowing some
form if general invitation to join).

The general purpose is to provide a forum to teach 'moral' truths and
provide a support group that accepts and conforms to a somewhat more
stringent code of ethics then our society at large seems to accept.

Freemasonry and its concordant and appendent bodies provide for many
varied charitable activities such as speech therapy clinics for aphasic
children, orthopedic and burn hospitals for children that provide
services on a no charge basis, support for the American Diabetes
Foundation and also additional research projects into Diabetes hot
sponsored by the 'Foundation'.

If you point your web browser at the web page for the 'Grand Lodge of
California' you will find additional information and links to additional
sites that you may find interesting.

You seem like a reasonable person and I hope that you find the answers
you are seeking.  May your travels be over a smooth road and your life a
full and happy one.

With my Best Wishes,
William H. Park.

---
 * SLMR 2.1a * Thrift is a wonderful virtue - in an ancestor.

Date: 01-03-97 (00:38)              Number: 300 of 307 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: william.park@bluelodge.org, WILLIAM PARK
Subj: Re: Got "black balled
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Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Message-ID: <9701021847389735@bluelodge.org>
Organization: The Blue Lodge BBS - Norwalk, CA. - 310-863-9061

WI>I have been told that in some Lodges in the world are starting to use
The WI>Quaran, Hindu texts, Any "Holy" book that is fitting. WI> Have
any of my fellow Brothers heard that as well???

WI>       Peter Adams PM, RAM, AF&AM

Dear Peter,
     Here in California, by resolution at the Communication of th Grand
Lodge, it was deternined that the 'Holy Writings' appropriate to the
candidates personal belief system were the appropriate book upon which
to be 'obligated'.  The use of 'alternate holy writings' is limited
however, to degree work.  At all other times the 'Holy Bible' is the
'Great Light' to be used on the alter.  When an 'alternate Holy Writing'
is used in degree work a closed 'Holy Bible' still must be on the Alter
in the NE corner thereof.  This applies only to Lodges under the Grand
Lodge of California.

     I have been told that in some countries you will find many 'Holy
Writings' on the Alter.  I believe that Israel is one of these
countries.  However, this would be considered 'hearsay' as I do not have
personal first hand knowledge of this.

     I hope this sheds some light on the subject for you.

WFR,
William H. Park
Master-elect
Composite Lodge #595 F&AM
California.

---
 * SLMR 2.1a * The thing most generally raised on land is taxes.

Date: 01-03-97 (03:02)              Number: 301 of 307 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: tmorgen@worldnet.att.net, TMORGEN
Subj: Re: a question
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Message-ID: <01bbf922$6ac1a320$db1193cf@tmorgen>

Gerry Sargent <mtavy@mail.zynet.co.uk> wrote in article
<32CC93D9.21CD@mail.zynet.co.uk>...
> Dear Bro Ted,
> Thank you for your kind words and kind sentiments expressed towards my
> connections.
> I enjoy learning about other juresdictions ect; and the problems that
> occupy present members minds.
> I feel sure that many Americans would be amazed at how little we have to
> memorize to enter, pass and be raised in the Craft in comparison to
> their  own experiences. I wonder why there is such a difference. Is it
> to create greater exclusivity or just the way things have apparently
> evolved over the period of time?
> There is no written work here nor a need to show that one has reached
> the 'required standard' by lectures, etc.
> If you or anyone else would like some personal answers I'll try to
> oblige - always of course with the understanding that they will be my
> views alone, never official, not of neccesity all there is on the
> subject or even the 'truth'. I'll strive to be both factual and
> truthful, but often the 'truth' is a somewhat moveable feast, depending
> on which angle you view it from. What may be 'right' for me may be 'not
> right' for others. In those cases we'll withdraw in order, amicably, to
> settle our differences, which being happily effected....
> Like many, I shall have to strive all my life to receive my greatest
> wish - Light!
> It was granted to me once, [in a very dramatic way I might add;-)] and
> hopefully it will be granted me again.
> I look forward Bro. Ted to reading your probable response and that of
> other Brothers comments too from across the terrestrial globe.
> Fraternal Greetings,
> Gerry Sargent.MM. Bedford 282. UGLE.
>
Dear Gerry,
Thank you for your kind letter.  Without going too far off track, my
initial
interest in the net was to converse with people from all over the globe.
Prior to my interest in alt.freemasonry, I was active in serveral other
groups with a penpal list of almost 50 at one time!  After writing to these
folks, some of them yet today, I no longer see our 'differences'  as easily
as I see the similarities we have.
I would be more interested in hearing from some of the others regarding
the reasons why we focus on memorizing and your part of the world does
not.
I have always visualized masonry from two distinct perspectives, that of
the ritual and the ritualist and that of a practicing mason that focuses
more of his time on caring for the widows and orphans, raising the funds
to provide the care for our philanthopies; the folks doing this are all too
often in the sidelines where they are not always noticed as are the folks
up front, putting on the work.  Yet, we would not survive if not for both
of these brothers.  Each one compliments the other. Alone, we would not
have the organization we have today.
I always try to encourage our visitors from other lands to please stay
around and enter into the discussions we have here. For instance, we
had a brother from Uruguay who asked about the letter G. In the US,
the last part of the Fellowcraft degree explains the letter G. I have given
this lecture myself, yet what do they do in Uruguay?  I really can't begin
to answer that, maybe we could start right here. What does UGLE do
with the letter G?  We won't be giving away any 'secrets'....I guess I
have to smile at that one....but I'm sure we can converse in some way
that will allow the other to gain some kind of understanding of the other
side of the "Pond".
Here is perhaps a bigger item to tackle and has been touched upon, but
some time ago. Our craft lodges here have 3 degrees of course.  Should
a Master Mason from the US try to visit in Great Britian, would there be
any problems with investigating and satisfying each other than we may
sit in lodge in fellowship?
My wife wants to see England and brings the subject up enough that I
believe we will do so someday, hopefully not too far in the future. I would
like to do some visiting there, but have no idea how I would go about it.
Enjoy talking to you, brother. In the meantime I remain
Fraternally yours,
Ted Morgenthaler, PM, Central City, Co.


Date: 01-02-97 (15:09)              Number: 302 of 307 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: thehalls@elite.net, MIKE HALL
Subj: Re: I would like to know more
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: Elite Networking - Merced, CA
Message-ID: <thehalls-0201971509380001@news.elite.net>

In article <qccrmBA0WwyyEwky@leucha.demon.co.uk>, Kevin Baker
<kev@leucha.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Dear reader
>
> I have a very good friend of mine who has just joined the freemasons,
> and I would also like to become one, but from what i have read on here a
> mason must never ask somebody to join they must ask themself, well i
> have been asking and he tells me i am not the sort of person that would
> fit in with the masons.
>
> the question i am asking is what kind of person do you have to be to fit
> in, I class myself as a very easy going kind of man, with interests of
> computers, space time and the universe.
>
> so prey tell me more of what i need to know

Dear Kevin ...
     What "sort of person would fit in with the Masons"?
     Old people, young people, rich people, poor people, Christians, Jews,
Muslims, lawyers, accountants, welders, repairmen, active people, lazy
people, atheletes, couch potatoes ... all can be the "sort of person" who
would fit in with the Masons.
     In most Lodges we are very concerned with increasing our membership,
and very interested in obtaining new members.
     IMHO, if one particular Mason determines that another would not "fit
in", that is not the final word on that subject.  The Lodge will have an
investigating committee to do that job.
     Look around for another Mason who may have a different opinion.  If
that fails, call the local Lodge and ask to speak to the Secretary or
Master and express your interest.  I bet they will see to it that you meet
some more Masons you can talk to.
     Mike Hall Master Mason Yosemite Lodge 99 Merced CA


Date: 01-04-97 (10:06)              Number: 310 of 328 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: yollie@azstarnet.com, WILLY
Subj: Re: One Day Masons
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: Starnet
Message-ID: <yollie.195.001DF0D3@azstarnet.com>

In article <AEF403A896687FE16@ld30-243.compuserve.com> PLZ@macbroker.com (Patri
ce) writes:
>From: PLZ@macbroker.com (Patrice)
>Subject: Re: One Day Masons
>Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 12:55:04 +0200

>In article <5a8hh6$crt@news2.cais.com>,
>rfire@cais.cais.com (Dr. Roger M. Firestone) wrote:

>I would like to ask a question concerning your original posting on this
subject where you outlined how French Lodges operate. i.e.. opening on the
first degree. This sounds like the Mexican Lodges where they follow the
Scottish Rite ritual. Where as we in the good old U.S. of A. conduct our lodges

under the York Rite. Also is your yearly fee $400.00 U.S. or French Francs? It
has long been my belief that in order to improve, not necessarily in numbers,
but in quality, Masonry in the U.S. we must tighten our order not just take
any breathing body that can pay dues. If Masonry is to re-gain its position in
society and politics it must first re-gain a position of respect. If it is
difficult to enter, demands thorough knowledge of its teachings before one can
progress and becomes very Private I believe it could grow in power and
position. However having said that I do not believe we will ever be allowed to
change to a system that would require a member to take so long to advance.
Shrine and Scottish Rite bodies would not allow this to happen else they would
loose there abuility to gain members. We are locked into a system that
requires a man to go rapidly from E.P. to M.M. so he can go on to support
subordenant bodies. Sad but true.

W. E. Caldwell P.M. Nogales #11 Nogales Az.


Date: 01-04-97 (18:01)              Number: 311 of 328 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: PLZ@macbroker.com, PATRICE
Subj: Re: Amaranth's Swedish Beginnings (Repost)
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry,alt.masonic.members
Organization: InterServ News Service
Message-ID: <AEF44B71966818DBCB@ld28-189.compuserve.com>

In article <5agjs0$3tk@news.crocker.com>,
ness2@crocker.com (Marie Paige) wrote:

>It again appears in France when the Lodges of Adoption were
>organized about 1730, each of which was under the control of a
>Masonic Lodge until June 10, 1974, when the Grand Orient of France
>by an Edict assumed control  of all Lodges of Adoption.

There must be some confusion here. (not more than 200 years, though)

The Lodges of adoption possibly appeared in France in the 18th century.
According to Henri Felix Marcy (1881 - 1963) who was a great historian of
Masonry as well as a dignitary of the Grand Orient of France, those Lodges
were created by regular Masons whose aim was to satisfy women's curiosity,
make slanders about the Craft quiet and eventually give a greater appeal to
some Masonic feasts. The oldest known of these Lodges, Marcy wrote, is La
felicite in the city of Dieppes which existed between 1766 and 1773.

On June 10, 1774 (here I think is the confusion with 1974), the GOdF
decided, at the suggestion of its Grand Orator, Bro. Bacon de la
Chevalerie, to "take them into consideration" and imposed them rules and a
Ritual.

In 1901, the Grande Lodge of France tried to help them flying off and
modernised the Ritual. In 1906 a Constitution and Regulations were imposed
to them. Many adoption Lodges were created between 1901 and 1935 when the
GLoF decided to grant them independance.

In 1945 was created "l'Union Maconnique Feminine" later named Grande Loge
Feminine de France (1952), which marked the end of the Lodges of Adoption.

One Lodge of the GLFF still works, for historical purposes, the former Rite
of Adoption, the others work the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite since
1959.

Friendliest regards,

Patrice
Loge l'Etoile #1001
Grande Loge de France, Paris




Date: 01-04-97 (17:30)              Number: 314 of 328 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: jwemtp@magibox.net, JWEMTP
Subj: Clandestine Masonry??
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Message-ID: <01bbfa65$2bc51dc0$998f1ace@jwemtp.MAGIBOX>

     Is it possible for us to "bury the hatchet" and possibly band together
with our Prince Hall Masonic bretheren? Their beginning lodge has a charter
from England, so it would seem that they are as "legit" as F&AM, AF&AM.  Is
this just an old racial issue that we refuse to deal with?  I think our
grand lodges should get together and attempt to join ALL masonic
organizations together.  The reason that I posted this is because I have a
black friend who said she was interested in joining Eastern Star and was
looking for a good group of people to associate with.  I was very ashamed
to tell her that Masonry and related organizations in our area (Memphis)
seemed to be set up on racial lines. Any discussion or comments would be
greatly appreciated.

Fraternally,

John C Wright
Park Ave Lodge No. 362, F&AM
Memphis TN


Date: 01-05-97 (23:58)              Number: 342 of 355 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: jbanks@almatel.net, JOHN C  BANKS
Subj: Re: A.F.& A.M. OR F. & A.M. DIFFERENCE?
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: America.Net, P.O. Box 1222, Alpharetta, GA 30239-1222
Message-ID: <32d03de3.66015616@news.almatel.net>


	The difference between A.F.&A.M. and F.& A.M. is in the craft.
Ancient Free & Accepted Mason are in the search of perfection in
performance in the openings, closings, and rituals.  A.F.& A.M. always
open in long form, most perform the rituals in full costume dress, and
they are some of the best lodges to witness the degrees in.
	
	F. & A.M. masons sometimes open in short form and  do some of
the rituals in long form, but are allowed to sometimes to shorten some
of the work.  Called due form.


Date: 01-06-97 (06:20)              Number: 352 of 355 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
0;46;1;37锢Tªÿ0ÃRÝ¥¹è•ÉµÕÑ�#ŸÆí&rt‹k×ËÃ+Ë«–iÖ«‹
I*”ª$„©
Ê
ÒU)Š¥”ªSUªE
Subj: Re: what about females?
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet <info@cais.com>
Message-ID: <5aq6hc$3ke@news2.cais.com>

PCREAGER <PCREAGER@prodigy.net> wrote:

>i am a woman, used to live with an alchemist who introduced me to Morals
>and Dogma of Freemasonry....  where do women fit in to Freemasonry?
>only if we're lucky enough to be coupled with a man who is associated
>with it? in alchemy, gold/silver, sun/moon, male/female are all part of
>the equation......      5-7-12 wonderer...

Off and on since early 1996, there have been lively threads within
alt.freemasonry on this subject.  To recover them, point your Web
browser to

http://www.dejanews.com

and do a search of this newsgroup using terms such as "Co-Masonry" and
"women."

It is indeed possible for a woman to become a Freemason, either via
joining an all-female obedience like the Grand Loge Feminine de
Belgique (feminine grand lodge of Belgium) or its parallel in France,
or by joining the international mixed-gender obedience called Le Droit
Humain.

The two all-female obediences mentioned have one lodge apiece in New
York City, and GLFB is said to be starting a new lodge in Los Angeles.

Le Droit Human (usually abbreviated DH, which is pronounced in the
French way as "day ahsh") has scattered lodges all over the United
States.  Some of them broke off and reformed as part of the American
Federation for Human Rights (AFHR) a few years ago.

"Co-Masonry" derives its name from the earliest part of this century,
and "co" should be taken in the same way as the prefix on
"coeducational," to mean "mixed" not "joint" like in "co-conspirator."

Mainstream Freemasonry in the United States is all male and derives
chiefly from the United Grand Lodge of England.  UGLE does not
"recognize" any of the mixed or all-female obediences, and neither do
any of the U.S. Grand Lodges (one per state plus the District of
Columbia).  So at present, it is not possible for a woman mason to sit
in lodge with a mainstreamer.  However, the rituals worked in the Co
and women's obediences are not different from the rituals worked in
mainstream lodges--except that the mainstreamers prohibit women from
joining.

--Janet Wintermute



Date: 01-05-97 (12:37)              Number: 339 of 355 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: spidergc@richmond.infi.net, SPIDERGREG
Subj: Re: Prince Hall Masonry
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: InfiNet
Message-ID: <32D01102.6A94@richmond.infi.net>
Reply-To: spidergc@richmond.infi.net

Dr. Roger M. Firestone wrote:
>
>
>
> In 1915 (?) D. W. Griffith created a silent movie, "Birth of a Nation,"
> in which a good deal of American history was presented in a somewhat
> fictionalized form.  For some reason, Griffith presented the KKK in a
> heroic light that departed considerably from the truth.  This led to a
> new KKK that had little in common with the original organization,
(118 min left), (H)elp, More? ns> especially by the time it became a common object of opprobrium in the
> 1950s and 1960s.  From upper-class origins, it came to be dominated by
> members of the lower middle classes in its later years.  Originally
> intended to oppose "Northern" influence, it came to be an organization
> whose primary goal was to promote religious and racial bigotry.  In the
> early years of the 20th century incarnation of the KKK, it was a social
> organization like any other in which to make contacts (hence the
> membership of such men as Hugo Black, Associate Justice of the Supreme
> Court); in later years, it was a way for the fringe elements of society
> to feel that they belonged to something and to reinforce their fragile
> egos by posturing as bullies.
>
>
>
> Let's bury this KKK stuff once and for all.  At best, it is a distortion;
> at worst, it is a lie.
>
> Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH

Agreed! Also, let us not forget that AFTER making "Birth of a Nation",
D.W.Griffith made another movie "Intolerance", which called for the
people of the world, ALL THE PEOPLE of the world, to lay down their
prejudiced ways. I was taught in Film class that Griffith made
"Intolerance" as a way of atoning for "Birth of A Nation". Whether this
is true or not, I think we still need to focus on the message of
"Intolerance". Masonry, as it is supposed to be, is an organization that
seeks to live by the brotherhood of man that Griffith expressed in
"Intolerance". People who attack Masonry should not confuse individual
Masons with the message that Masonry represents. I personally look
forward to the time when ALL Masons: AF&AM/F&AM, and Prince Hall, sit as
one body. That will occur as long as individual Masons of all colors and
creeds strive to live up to the ideals of Freemasonry.

Greg Curry
Junior Deacon-Richmond (Virginia) #10



Date: 01-06-97 (06:20)              Number: 352 of 355 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: jwintermute@ids2.idsonline.com, JANET & JOHN WINTERMUTE
Subj: Re: what about females?
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet <info@cais.com
Message-ID: <5aq6hc$3ke@news2.cais.com

PCREAGER <PCREAGER@prodigy.net wrote:

i am a woman, used to live with an alchemist who introduced me to Morals
and Dogma of Freemasonry....  where do women fit in to Freemasonry?
only if we're lucky enough to be coupled with a man who is associated
with it? in alchemy, gold/silver, sun/moon, male/female are all part of
the equation......      5-7-12 wonderer...

Off and on since early 1996, there have been lively threads within
alt.freemasonry on this subject.  To recover them, point your Web
browser to

http://www.dejanews.com

and do a search of this newsgroup using terms such as "Co-Masonry" and
"women."

It is indeed possible for a woman to become a Freemason, either via
joining an all-female obedience like the Grand Loge Feminine de
Belgique (feminine grand lodge of Belgium) or its parallel in France,
or by joining the international mixed-gender obedience called Le Droit
Humain.

The two all-female obediences mentioned have one lodge apiece in New
York City, and GLFB is said to be starting a new lodge in Los Angeles.

Le Droit Human (usually abbreviated DH, which is pronounced in the
French way as "day ahsh") has scattered lodges all over the United
States.  Some of them broke off and reformed as part of the American
Federation for Human Rights (AFHR) a few years ago.

"Co-Masonry" derives its name from the earliest part of this century,
and "co" should be taken in the same way as the prefix on
"coeducational," to mean "mixed" not "joint" like in "co-conspirator."

Mainstream Freemasonry in the United States is all male and derives
chiefly from the United Grand Lodge of England.  UGLE does not
"recognize" any of the mixed or all-female obediences, and neither do
any of the U.S. Grand Lodges (one per state plus the District of
Columbia).  So at present, it is not possible for a woman mason to sit
in lodge with a mainstreamer.  However, the rituals worked in the Co
and women's obediences are not different from the rituals worked in
mainstream lodges--except that the mainstreamers prohibit women from
joining.

--Janet Wintermute


Date: 01-06-97 (13:58)              Number: 364 of 378 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR  ROGER M  FIRESTONE
Subj: Re: Prince Hall Masonry
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet <info@cais.com>
Message-ID: <5ar0et$cpo@news2.cais.com>

In article <AEF588A896685BDC8@ld36-181.compuserve.com>,
Patrice <PLZ@macbroker.com> wrote:
>In article <32cec8cb.0@news.computer.net>,
>sfitz@computer.net (scotty) wrote:
>
>>To summerize, as a relatively young and relatively less conservative
>>mason, I hope to vote for recognition to prince hall masons.  Do you
>>think the answer is in attrition thru old age of racist masons???
>
>Interesting question.
>
>It seems there are only two possibilities, since prior to their recent
>recognition the PHGL did not change anything in their Ritual or practices,
>so:
>
>a) The PHGL's always were regular and non recognition was because of racism
>
>or
>
>b) The PHGLs are still irregular and the recognition process is the fruit
>of some political correctness

How about:

c) Not all of the facts surrounding the genesis of PHA Masonry were
known to researchers and those deciding on issues of recognition and
recent studies of the origins of PHA indicate that earlier understanding
may have been incorrect

d) Provisions of exclusive geographic jurisdiction incorporated into all
"mainstream" GL Constitutions to promote harmony among GLs wishing to
establish Lodges in unorganized territory during the American westward
expansion prevented the recognition of PHA Masonry by "mainstream"
(George Washington) Grand Lodges irrespective of other matters of
regularity until such constitutional clauses could be amended

"Beware the man of only two possiblities."   :-)

Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH

Date: 01-06-97 (10:04)              Number: 365 of 378 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: nyts@dorsai.org, NEW YORK THEOSOPHICAL SOC
Subj: Re: Freemasonry a secret society?
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: The Dorsai Embassy, Inc.
Message-ID: <5ar49t$m53@amanda.dorsai.org>

Robert Byrd (rby945@airmail.net) wrote:
: In article <32ce7997.0@news.computer.net>, sfitz@computer.net (scotty) wrote:

: > I don't get why people want to believe that Masonry is a secret
: > society.

:   Refreshing to read a Post such as yours.  You're absolutely correst, The
: Masonic Fraternity is not a Secret Society, but a Fraternity with Secrets
: for it's Members, consisting of the Initiation.  It is the Oldest and
: Greatest Fraternity, that exist for the good of all.

	I did not understand fully the significance of the secrecy until
a recent talk by Bro. John Algeo, where he pointed out that the secrecy
is an important part of the symbology. Just like the physical holy book may
not be the holiest book to all in attendence, the fact that anything that
Masons are sworn not to reveal is readily available to anybody willing to
expend a minor amount of effort. The importance is that the holy book is
accepted as holy as part of the ritual, and the secrets are accepted as
secrets as part of the ritual. The secrecy itself is symbolic (for those
who think that this is belittling the secrets, consider the way society
treats its symbols, such as the furor over burning American flags, court
cases over towns having Christmas displays, or headlines when swastikas
are painted on people's houses. Symbols are an extremely important part
of the human psyche.).

	Bart Lidofsky

Date: 01-06-97 (07:11)              Number: 366 of 378 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: dcalvey@bcl.net, C CALVEY
Subj: Re: Masters Hats -- Direction of the Fraternity
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: CCS
Message-ID: <01bbfba2$c530bd00$513303d0@dcalvey.bcl.net>

I feel that i must agree on some points, but not all.  I am the Master of a
lodge that i fear will die out in the next two years, if i cant come up
with a strategy to recruit younger members.

Let me say also that i am 25, have long hair, a goatee, two earrings, and
wear a biker jacket to work. <G>  No lie, either.  My family have always
been masons, it seems, so i became a mason.  I was raised 6 months after my
21st birthday.  I also feel that to some of the older brethren, i am too
outspoken.  Masonry is progressive. New style for new times.

The first problem i noticed in my lodge was an old officer.  (No longer a
member of my lodge, btw.)  He has also been blackballed several times.
Because of his prejudiced, irritating and argumentative nature, we have
lost a lot of good members.  We carry 156 on the roster, and we regularly
have 10 in attendance.
--
Stryfe

W.M. Charles J. Calvey
Milton #275 AF&AM
Milton, IL

<dcalvey@bcl.net>
<stryfe@cris.com>


Date: 01-06-97 (17:21)              Number: 370 of 378 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: jgbennie@vcn.bc.ca, JIM BENNIE
Subj: Re: Will you be off or from?
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: Vancouver CommunityNet
Message-ID: <5as8f0$5k7@opus.vcn.bc.ca>

In <5apgn9$hlp@agate.nbnet.nb.ca>, lebrown@nbnet.nb.ca (Larry Brown ) wrote:
> Can any one of the brothers tell me what it means when the question is
> asked "will you be off or from" ?
> one of our newer brother asked me this question, and I couldn't answer
> him.

Larry, I guess it depends on the ritual you're used to.

This question is not asked in the Canadian working but
is in the candidate exams in the US-type working which is
the dominant ritual in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and P.E.I.

In Scotland, the question has a different meaning.
In the Scottish ritual books I have, it is asked of
the SW by the WM prior to changing degrees in short form.

Jim Bennie,
WM  Lodge Southern Cross #44
Vancouver, B.C.


Date: 01-07-97 (02:04)              Number: 375 of 378 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: bowen@argo.unm.edu, [g bowen]
Subj: Re: Evil mASSonic Shriner Secrets ?
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Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry,alt.masonic.members
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Message-ID: <5asavf$19v@lynx.unm.edu>

Jeffrey W. Soper (soper@dnaco.net) wrote:
: Tweety wrote:
: > Do you know the
: > evil truth about the Shriners *Fez* Hat? Muslims in the 8th century
: > exterminated 50,000 Christians (this was a Christian Holocaust)the
: > Muslim murderers dipped their *Fez* Caps in the blood of the
: > exterminated Christians in honor of Allah (Allah is Lucifer) The blood
: > stained caps were called *Fezzes*

: In 700-799 I find no records of such action by the Muslim.  As a matter
: of fact the Islamic Empire was in transistion at that time.  The Umayyad
: Caliphate was replace by the Abbasids.
: ALso durring this period was the exapnasion to the East.  The Caliphate
: was moved to Baghdad.
: As a matter of fact the Muslims and Christians were very tolerant of
: each other at that time.
: Before you throw grabage out as truth.  Please look at some histroy
: books
: written about Islamic history.  I could give a good list to start from
: if you need it.
: Jeff

: --
: -------------------------------------------------------------------
: |  Lodge Education Officer,               | Jeffrey W. Soper      |
: |  Treasure, and Past Master              | PO BOX 24462          |
: |  Miami Valley Lodge #660 F&AM           | Dayton, OH  45424-0462|
: |  Dayton, Ohio                           |                       |
: |  http://www.dnaco.net/~soper/mvtop.html | soper@dnaco.net       |
: |  ------> ROSE BOWL CHAMP THE Ohio State BUCKEYES <---- GO BUCKS |
: -------------------------------------------------------------------

  As a matter of fact it was a Christian monarch who first protected
Muslims from pagan persecution before Islam was established.  Several
Muslims fled Arabia to Ethiopia to escape persecution from the Prophet's
unconverted clan.  As the Ethiopians had serious trade ties with the
Arabian tribes, it became a major issue between them whether or not
the Muslims would be returned as run away slaves.  The slaves claimed
kinship with Christians based on their new religion and petitioned
the Ethiopians for protection from pagan persecution.  The Ethiopian
church examined them as to their beliefs since Islam was unknown at the
time outside Arabia.  Their finding was that the slaves as Muslims
were indeed not pagans and entitled to protection from persecution
by pagans.  They were not returned to their pagan owners.  This occured
about the time of the Prophet's flight from Mecca and was prompted by
the same persecution.



Date: 01-07-97 (18:00)              Number: 378 of 378 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: selly@sa.apana.org.au, CHRIS SELWOOD
Subj: Re: a question
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Message-ID: <32D209BD.7206@sa.apana.org.au>

rudebs@mail.icon.co.za wrote:
>
> Im busy reading the book, The Hiram key.  In the book they talk
> about the ritual of the third degree whererby the secrets of a MM
> was known to only three people.  Yet when hiram was killed it is stated that
> the secrets where lost and substituted secrets where made.  Why was this
> needed if at least two other people knew the secrets?

Ahh - that is because "without the help and assistance of the other two
he neither could nor would divulge them" that is to say it takes three
Past Masters to communicate the secrets.

Chris Selwood PM PZ LGR
Earl of Zetland Lodge
South Australia


Date: 01-07-97 (20:07)              Number: 402 of 403 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: pedrotti@odr.org, PETER PEDROTTI
Subj: Re: Masonic imposters
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Reply-To: pedrotti@odr.org

Sean Clay wrote:
>
> Brethern,
> Considering the differences between our GLs, it might not be wise to try to
> try each other. Some of our lodges (CA) recognises Prince Hall and others
> do not. As a member of a California lodge, I cannot visit a lodge that does
> not recognize PH. With this in mind, can I be tried by a person from a
> lodge that I couldn't visit anyway??
> Another point is that you first have to check for a paid up dues card. You
> might be talking to a person who is not a current member.
> Just a few thoughts...
> Sean Clay - JD - Yucca Valley #802
> Yucca Valley, CA  USA

Bro. Sean,

Lodges do not have the authority to recognize or not recognize other
Lodges or Grand Lodges.  All Lodges under the jurisdiction of the M.W.
Grand Lodge, F&AM of California recognize all Lodges of the M.W. Prince
Hall Grand Lodge, F&AM of California, Inc., because the GL's recognize
one another.  No further consideration of the matter remains to be
decided in Lodges of either GL.

And where did you get that bit about not being able to visit a Lodge in
a jurisdiction that doesn't recognize Prince Hall?  You may visit in any
GL that recognizes California and in turn is recognized by California,
and any of their members may attend in California.  That's what mutual
recognition means.

Our visitors are the only ones who may think they have a problem in
California.  If in their home GL, California is recognized, but Prince
Hall is not, they might think they have to leave if they find themselves
sitting in a California Lodge with a Prince Hall visitor.  Unless there
are differences in other GL codes to the contrary, they probably do not,
in fact, have a real problem, as they are not involved in "making
clandestine Masons" and the like; they are attending a recognized Lodge
that is acting in pursuit of its own regulations.  The fact remains that
even if we suffer the "flaw" that we welcome PH visitors, we are still
on good fraternal terms with the rest of regular Masonry.

As far as I know, no US GL has "excommunicated" any of the US GL's that
have woken up to the Light and recognized PH.  Your only inhibition is
that just because you may sit in Lodge with a PH Mason in California
does not mean you have any right to vouch for an individual PH Mason to
get him into the other GL's Lodge.

The best advice I've heard for guidance in this incredible thicket of
conflicting rules is "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

S&F,

Peter Pedrotti, PM
Oakland, CA  USA
<webmaster@odr.org>


Date: 01-06-97 (20:42)              Number: 406 of 425 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: hello@mail.imaginet.fr (Reply-To: hello@.imaginet.fr), •hello.fr...
Subj: hello -GO fm
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Message-ID: <32D171AF.71C4@mail.imaginet.fr>
Reply-To: hello@.imaginet.fr

first i learnt english at school many years ago.Fraternally i accept any
corrections or suggestions about writing.I am enjoyed by your answers
grateful and respectful.
How to begin. In France GO is the most important obedience, counting
40.000 fm. GO is based on layness, its slogan is
Liberty,Egality,Fraternity. Solidarity is the rule as strong behaviour
between brothers.
Lay requirement is what explains the non-reference about belief in a
supreme being. We have faith in Reason like the philosophers of
ÒLumieresÓ century the 18e define it.
Actually an important question is how the fm can help the improvement of
society, itself loosing its references especially about the idea of
progress.GO defines itself like a philanthropic, philosophical and
progressive institution whose aims are searching truth, studying ethics,
and solidarity practice.
However, science improvement has also caused human or natural
catastrophes.The historic increase of technological progress has been in
the same time escorted by an increase of poorness and unhappyness of too
many people around the world.
The progress idea must be questionned.

Date: 01-07-97 (23:28)              Number: 407 of 425 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: Whiter@btinternet.com, RICHARD WHITE
Subj: Re: George Washington, Freemason
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WM ignotum <wmignotum@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970102144201.JAA13783@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> George Washington was only twenty in november 1752 when he joined the
> Mosonic Order. He rose quickly through the ranks and eventually was
> elected Grand Master of the Grand lodge of Virginia, although he declined
> the office.
>    Washington treasured his Masonic ties. The Marqui de Lafayette, who
> served under him, Washington used Freemasonry to forge unity among his
> soldiers/troops who largely identified not with a nascent nation but with
> their individual colonies.
>     The general welcomed the creation of at least 11 new military Masonic
> lodges, in which men from all the colonies could mix. The lodges were
> moral builders for many of the men. Washington valued the loyalty of The
> Craft. He wrote "The virtues that enoble mankind are taught, nourished,
> and fostered in the halls of Freemasonry; they encourage domestic life
and
> serve as a standard for the highest duties of state."
>     The reason for the semi Masonic biography of Washington is my way of
> saying to the people who call us "Satanic, Evil, Moraly corrupt ect." If
> it wasn't for a Mason we might not have this great country of ours. I
> would also like to add the fact that the majority of our founding fathers
> WERE masons.... I hope you think about the FACTS before passing any kind
> of judgement on anything..
>
>         Let the captives be brought to light,
>          Peter Adams, PM, RAM, AF&AM.

George Washington may well be considered a hero of the revolution and a
mainstay of Freemasonry in the American colonies.    But how well did he
live up to his Masonic duties?

1.	Contrary of the ancient traditions of Freemasonry he betrayed the
Sovereign of his native land (i.e. King George III).   Every new made mason
is charged with the necessity of paying due obediance to the laws of the
land by never proposing or at all countenancing any act that may have a
tendency to subvert the peace and good order of society and above all by
never losing sight of the allegiance due to the Sovereign of his native
land.

2.	He further betrayed his Sovereign committing both treason under common
law and mutiny under martial law - the former as a loyal subject of the
Crown and the latter because he also held a Commission from the King with
the rank of Colonel.

3.	He also broke with the more recent established traditions of the Craft
by involving it in the politics of the time (although he was far from being
alone in this).   His use of Freemasonry to aid the political cohesion of
the new USA from the individual states, and his reliance on the Brotherly
Love among Freemasons to render the loyalist officers less willing to kill
fellow Freemasons in the rebel army or witness to this.


4.	Subsequently he endorsed and become the first President of a country
which positively promoted the continuance of Slavery and the abduction of
free men and women from Africa into slavery.   There was however some
embarassment at this and the slaves were politely refered to a "migrant
labour" etc..  Perhaps this was the beginning of politically correct
wordings?


I could go on - however the main point I am making is that George
Washington is a famous hero because he won.   Had he lost the revolution he
would have gone down as a traitor.

We must of course be fair - the origins of the American revolution were
founded on the injustices of the colonial rule.   And at that time, slaves
were hardly condidered proper human beings, let alone worthy of being part
of the new order - any more than were women at theat time.

Regards,

Richard


Date: 01-08-97 (17:32)              Number: 417 of 425 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR  ROGER M  FIRESTONE
Subj: Re: George Washington, Freemason
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Newly admitted Masons are _charged_ to be peaceable citizens of the
state, but that is different from being _obligated_ to be so.  George
Washington did not, so far as we know, violate his _obligations_ as a
Mason.  Indeed, one can say that because the government in Britain had
acted tyrannically toward its subjects in the new world colonies, it
lost the legitimacy of its rule.  Should Freemasons in Germany have
been "good Nazis" by the same token?

George Washington was a traitor to England, whether he won or lost.
But that does not mean he was false to his obligations as a Mason.

Also, I remind you that it is not involvement in politics or religion
that is proscribed in Freemasonry; it is _divisive or invidious_
politics or religion.  One may not discuss the superiority of one's
party or cnadidate.  But George Washington used Freemasonry to promote
patriotism--love and ardor for the new country being founded by the
Revolution.  Patriotism and support of country are not what is meant
by "politics" in addressing what is prohibited in Lodge.

Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH


Date: 01-09-97 (00:03)              Number: 420 of 425 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: jhargrav@rmii.com, JEFF HARGRAVE
Subj: Re: Are Blue Lodges Hoodwinked??
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Organization: Rocky Mountain Internet Inc.
Message-ID: <5b1cpf$hvb@natasha.rmii.com>

rfire@cais2.cais.com (Dr. Roger M. Firestone) wrote:

>Check your Grand Lodge Constitution before you open a meeting for
>business on other than the Third Degree.  The Constitution of the GL of
>DC prohibits transacting any business other than in the 3rd.  YMMV.


Here in Colorado, we have what are called "Pilot Lodges".  These are
Lodges that are allowed, by Dispensation of the Grand Master, to try
new ideas and see if they work before changing the Constitution of the
Grand Lodge.  One of these has been to conduct business meetings on
any degree.

Personally, I think it is a good idea.  A newly made brother can then
remain after his Initiaton or Passing and is not asked to leave as
soon as the degree work is finished.  Kind of gets them involved
sooner.

Hopefully, this will get into the Constitution soon and every Lodge in
the state will be allowed to do this.

Fraternally,

Jeff Hargrave
Senior Warden, Edgewater Lodge 159, Edgewater, CO



Date: 01-09-97 (21:47)              Number: 471 of 479 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: jgbennie@vcn.bc.ca, JIM BENNIE
Subj: Re: Masonic imposters
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John C. Banks (jbanks@almatel.net) wrote:
:
: 	The governing body is the Grand Lodge of your area.  The Grand
: Lodge of Georgia and the Grand Lodge of Florida does not recognize the
: Prince Hall Lodges.  Furthermore, if any Grand lodge in the US
: formally recognizes these lodges, the Grand Lodge's sever
: communication with these Lodges.

John, our GL recognises two Prince Hall Grand Lodges. Are
you saying the GLs of Georgia and Florida have severed
communication with my Grand Lodge? If so, it's sure news
to our Grand Secretary.

: Furthermore, if you remember your ob
: you will know that you can not be present at a lodge made up or
: containing such a brother.

My obligations in the three degrees say nothing like this.
The closest they come is that I can not give the secrets
of a degree unless it is in the body of a Lodge ("regular"
is only used in the EA obligation in the Canadian ritual)
or unless I'm satisfied the man in question is "a true or
lawful brother".

And your premise is partially untrue for British Columbia
because of an edict proclaimed by (then) GM David Gibson.
If I were, say, visiting a Lodge under the GL of California,
and a Mason under the PH GL of California were there, I
*can* "be present at a Lodge....containing such a brother",
even though we don't recognise PH GL of California (yet).

: Even if you did not make such a brother,
: if you are involved in a masonic meeting with a clandestine made
: mason, you and the lodge is in violation and therefore both you and
: the lodge can be brought up on masonic charges.

You are quite correct in that if I were to visit a Lodge
under a Grand body which B.C. doesn't recognise, or allow
a Mason from one of those Lodges to visit my Lodge, I would
likely be brought up on Masonic charges.

Jim Bennie
WM, Lodge Southern Cross #44
Vancouver, B.C.


Date: 12-21-96 (05:56)              Number: 10 of 508 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: hypnosis@pacbell.net, EUGENE GOLDMAN ·
Subj: Virtues - long post
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Reply-To: hypnosis@pacbell.net

What I get from Masonry

Eugene Goldman, Past Master

People have asked me from time to time, what I get from being a Mason.
What is it that I learned, or discovered in Lodge that makes it so
interesting or valuable to me?  Why do I keep going back to Lodge,
paying Dues, serving as an Officer, spend so much time on the Internet
researching and discussing Masonry?

I don't think anyone really learns anything new in Masonry.  I know I
didn't, though I really expected to.  Much to my surprise I was, and
continue to be, reminded of several principles and virtues that I had
already inculcated as my own long before I became a Mason.  Most, if
not all,  Masons it has been my pleasure to meet also accept these
principles and Virtues as valid and true in their lives.  What are
these Virtues?  What are these Principles?  I will enumerate and
describe them, as best I can, one at a time.

Brotherly Love: This Virtue admonishes us to regard the entire human
race as family.  We were, after all, created by the same Creator, and
the tie that binds us is stronger than we sometimes think.  In all
that we do, we should consider our family, known and unknown.  What is
best for them, and for ourselves?

Relief: Whenever we encounter a fellow creature in need, particularly
at times when we are in abundance (but even when we are not), we
should never fail to do what we are able to relieve their distress.

Truth: This should always have the highest priority, above personal
agendas and disagreements.  We must be always ready, not only to seek,
find and speak the Truth.  However, we must be prepared to hear it as
well.  This is not always easy.  In fact, hearing an unwelcome Truth
is usually difficult.  Still, hear it we sometimes must, and accept it
as well.

Faith: When we believe in something bigger than ourselves, something
greater than we can even aspire to becoming, we are humbled.  Humility
inspires us to do our best.  Not because we can equal the Creator, but
to imitate Him and make something of Beauty ourselves.  Beauty gives
both pleasure and brings the following Virtue.

Hope: A better world awaits us.  Even in this life, we may look
forward to an improved existence.  Educating our Children will insure
that they will be able to make good decisions when it is their
time to do so.  Here I speak not of an empty Hope, but a Hope based on
the secure knowledge that we have all done our best to make the world
of tomorrow better than it is today.

Charity: Beyond Relief (above), we should always work hard to improve
the condition of those around us.  Where Relief leaves off, Charity
begins.  Going beyond soothing an affliction or satisfying a need,
Charity is the act or acts designed to prevent those needs from ever
existing again.  Preventing distress, not for the recognition, thanks
or acclaim, but because it improves some part of the world, is the
highest form of Charity.

Tolerance: By this principle of life and conduct we are reminded that
it is seldom necessary to prove someone else wrong for us to be right.
We do not have to cause another to fail in order to succeed.  In the
60s, there was a term called win - win.  Both sides of almost every
conflict can find a "middle ground" in which satisfaction may be a
shared commodity, if both sides are willing to allow the other to win
also.

Temprence: Doing almost anything to excess is harmful.  Charity, given
to excess, can leave one impoverished.  Love, given to excess, may be
smothering.  The effects of drugs and alcohol, when used to excess,
are well known.  However, consider the effect of too much Truth.
Truth without tact (the knowledge of when NOT to say things) can hurt
feelings and even destroy friendships.

Fortitude: Without fortitude, no one can succeed.  Everything gets
difficult sometimes, there is always the temptation to give in or give
up.  When we show Fortitude, we learn to "stick it out" and overcome
obstacles to accomplish goals.

Prudence: The mark of a Polite person is knowing when to speak and
when not to.  What to say and what not to.  "To everything, there is a
season."  This is not only a quotation from Scripture, and a popular
song of a previous decade, but good advice as well.

Justice: Everyone deserves to have their fair due, whatever that may
be.  Like Truth, we must be prepared not only to dispense Justice, but
to have it dispensed to us.  We must be able to put aside our own
wants and sometimes needs in order to insure that Justice is served.

All these Principles and Virtues are bigger than ourselves, greater
than our personal desires.  Observing and practicing them, we are
making this a better world, not only for ourselves, but for
all who inhabit it.

This is what I get from Masonry.  This is why I keep coming back.  To
be reminded of these principles, and learn more about them.

The above work is the sole creative property of myself.  Any member of
the Fraternity may copy it in whole or in part of Freemasonry, of
whatever Degree and affiliation, for any Masonic purpose.  The author
may grant use by others on request.

Be well. Travel with a light heart.

Eugene Goldman P.·. M.·.

Blackmer Lodge #442, San Diego, Ca.
Black Mountain Masonic Lodge, U.D., San Diego, Ca.
Southern Ca. Research Lodge
A.A.S.R., Valley of San Diego

May Brotherly Love forever prevail,
  and every moral and social Virtue cement us.

If you can read this, you have gone too far!

Date: 12-21-96 (03:25)              Number: 11 of 508 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: loupecon@communique.net (Reply-To: no one), AKMA
Subj: Cancel "Re: An interesting Question? - Blazzer.log"
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Reply-To: no one



Date: 12-18-96 (09:46)              Number: 21 of 508 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: pmj@netcom.ca, PETER MICHAEL JACK
Subj: The Real Secret of the FIVE Berries
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The Secret of The FIVE Berries

And now, for your reading pleasure, herein is
set forth, the real secret behind the leaves
and the berries appearing on the U.S. One Dollar
Bill.

Equiped with the three G tools

         God
         Gematria
     &   Geometry

we proceed to extract the truth behind these
mysterious symbols.

Firstly, let us take a look at Geometry. The ultimate
bearer of the truth. Devoid of all linguistic accumulations
and detractions.

Take a shpere o of radius r, and add fire or heat, to
expand it to a larger sphere O of radius R. Then
bring two of these heated spheres O O together to
form a 3-dimensional vesica piscis bond (), extracting
an amount of energy from the () region that is contributed
by one of the spheres, so that the new structure OO'
has the same uniform energy density as the two free Os.

we get

    o  o  +  fire --> O O --> OO' + ()-fire

where the o o are the original energy spheres, O O are the
heated spheres, and OO' the resultant molecule (like H2)
with the liberated energy ()-fire equal to one vesica
piscis vol of heated energy from an O.

Now we say, if the o o energy spheres are the smallest
such energy quantities ( quantized energy ), then the
fire itself must be the oooos. In other words, all the
primal spheres are the fire, or the primal spirit,
out of which the larger Os emerge as accumulations.
The smallest O that we can *concieve* of, is that
volume of radius R, such that, the ()-fire released
from construction of the shape, is exactly one o,
or primal sphere.

we then have

   o o + fire = O + O = OO' + o

as the equation describing the smallest heated O
we can conceive of. The problem comes down to finding
the radius R, of the sphere O, whose vesica piscis
region, formed by the intersection of a similar sphere
O, has the same volume measure as the original primal
sphere o.

When we do the calculation we obtain the relation,
between the vesica piscis volume and its host sphere's
volume as ;-

 Vol_of_() = (5/16) x Vol_of_O

where

 Vol_of_O = (4/3)pi.R^3

and

 Vol_of_o = (4/3)pi.r^3

hence since we require Vol_of_() = Vol_of_o

we obtain the ratios between o and O

    Vol_of_o = (5/16) Vol_of_O

Since, however, nature contains only whole numbers
in its construction, it follows that we can't really
have a Vesica Piscis volume equal to one o-sphere,
because that would require us to have a sphere O
whose volume is (16/5) of the primal sphere o.

The smallest sphere O we can construct, that
satisfies the ratio (5/16) between its vesica
piscis region and its heated volume, is one
that has exactly 16 o-spheres in its composition.
In which case, the vesica piscis region itself
will contain 5 o-spheres, and the _fire_ that
is extracted from the formation of the OO'
structure will contain exactly 5 o-spheres.


At this point, I'm going to borrow Sir Arthur Conan
Doyle's terminology, from his story _Five Orange Pips_
and call the o's Orange Pips, and the O's Oranges.

So, there are 16 Pips in an Orange. Two Oranges
containing a total of 32 pips are joined together,
forming a vesica piscis bond containing 5 pips, and
5 pips emerge as FRUIT from the LEAVES OO' !!

We shall also call the Vesica Piscis bond the FISH.

Take three Oranges, form two FISHES, one on the Left
and one on the Right of the central Orange -- OOO
The Left hemisphere of the Central Orange contains
exactly 8 pips that make up its LEAF structure,
and 5 pips that emerge as FRUIT (berries) from the
Left FISH, and the Right hemisphere also contains
exactly 8 pips that make up its LEAF structure,
and 5 pips emerge as FRUIT (berries) from the
Right FISH.

Note the following numbers :-

When two Oranges form one FISH, each Orange will
have a region outside the FISH that contains 11
pips, making a total of 22 pips from the two
Oranges outside the FISH. The FISH itself contains
5 pips, so the total number of pips in the OO'
Orange molecule is 27. The 5 missing pips (32-27)
emerge as Berries (FRUIT) from the formation of
this bond.

If you look at the Potrait of Washington on the dollar
bill, you'll see the 8 leaves on each side of the
oval, representing the 8 pips that make up a *LEAF*,
as opposed to the pips that emerge as FRUIT, which
is shown as 5 berries among the leaves on either
side.

The Oval itself represents the TWO FISHES, and so
is fatter than a single vesica piscis would be
and the  word   W A S H I N G T O N  with its
10 letters ( 5 + 5 ) confirm the two FISHES
since each FISH has 5 pips represented by 5 letters.

The back of the bill also shows 4 groups of
5-berries emerging towards the center of square,
but emerging in a curvelinear nature suggesting that
the two seals are spinning in opposite directions,
one clockwise, and the other counter-clockwise.

The total number of berries on the bill is 74.
They are made up of 2 groups of 13 berries on
either seal tailing off towards the paper edge,
20 berries emerging towards the center of the
square on the back, 14 berries on the branch held
by the eagle, 10 berries on the bottom of the
potrait, and 4 berries near the four unique
shields in the face of the bill.

Now a bit of Gematria.

We know that JESUS = (10+5+19+21+19)    = 74
and that   LUCIFER = (12+21+3+9+6+5+6)  = 74
and that   ENGLISH = (5+14+7+12+9+19+8) = 74
but also     FRUIT = (6+18+21+9+20)     = 74

so not only are there exactly 74 berries on the Bill,
but this just happens to be the gematric value of
the english word FRUIT, which itself has 5 letters,
attesting to the fundamental nature of the berries
to emerge in groups of 5 from every primary bond.

And not only does JESUS = 74, but if you look up the
elements in the Periodic Table of Elements, we find that
the 74 th Element Tungsten has the highest melting and
boiling points of any element known. What this means, is
that from the primordial soup, as the vapors cool,
the Element Tungsten, Atomic No 74, is the First element
to come into being, as a liquid, and the first element
again to crystalise as a solid. And correspondingly,
when we start from a collection of the elements in solid
form, and heat up the group, Tungsten is the Last element
to melt, and the last element to vaporise. So Element
74 is the First and the Last -- like Alpha and Omega
of Jesus -- is the bible a book of chemistry ?


            TO KNOW KNOWLEDGE

Now let us consider the following words and their
gematric values

LEAF       = (12+5+1+6)                = 24
FRUIT      = (6+18+21+9+20)            = 74
LEAF + FRUIT                           = 98


FLESH      = (6+12+5+19+8)             = 50
BLOOD      = (2+12+15+15+4)            = 48
FLESH + BLOOD                          = 98


TO KNOW    = (20+15) + (11+14+15+23)   = 98

KNOWLEDGE  = (11+14+15+23+12+5+4+7+5)    = 96
ONE DOLLAR = (15+14+5)+(4+15+12+12+1+18) = 96


On the front of the Dollar bill, we see the
lower _WHITE_ letters of the words ONE DOLLAR
have the same value as KNOWLEDGE, both yielding
96 for their gematric equivalents. This indicates
that KNOWLEDGE is one of the hidden meanings of
the phrase ONE DOLLAR.

The Leaves and Fruit just above this, that appear
to arise out of the soil of knowledge below, from
the two fishes, have the same value as the
phrase TO KNOW (eat my Flesh and Drink my Blood
refers to the symbolism TO KNOW me!)


TO KNOW = LEAF + FRUIT = FLESH + BLOOD = 98

Here these phrases, standing as they do, one
above the other reads

           TO KNOW
          KNOWLEDGE


The primary objective of the nation, then, would
seem to be - To Know Knowledge. Whatever that knowledge
might consist of  -- scientific knowledge, magical
knowledge, all knowledge, but to learn and aquire
knowledge is a primary reason, if not the primary reason,
for the founding of the nation.

This might seem a bit simplistic at first glance,
since Freedom, Capitalism, Democracy and all sorts
of claims are made as the nations objectives. But,
in fact, only the objective - To Know Knowledge -
is achievable. Everyone can own the same knowledge,
we can all own the same bits of knowledge at the
same time, there need be no conflicts where
this is concerned. But, we can't exercise the same
Freedoms, if you have private property, for example,
that constrians movement of people. And Democracy
is really heavily influenced by financial realities.
And Capitalism requires the supression of free flow
of ideas. And so on, all the publically proclaimed
objectives are -- lets just say difficult targets.
But, To Know Knowledge, why, that's fully implementable.

However....

We know that when we *raise* ONE DOLLAR by the Scientific
factor e = 2.72, we get the value of the black letters
that say "The United States Of America"

    96 x 2.72 = 261

The fact that these letters are in _BLACK_ indicates
that the Knowledge created here is Obscure,
intended to hide or conceal something. This is
the disinformation, propaganda and the like
that is created with a little bit of True Knowledge
(the white lower letters) to occlude the real
knowledge that is built up on the Back of the
dollar bill. These Black Letters, are the Nations
Face, the image it represents to the world,
the ideas and associations that it feels
others should think about it. That's why
it's on the Face of the bill. On the back
of the bill, the same upper letters are
in white, indicating that the real knowledge
is there, hidden from the casual eye and the
everyday newapaper readers -- most newspapers
print in _black_ letters confirming the truth ;)


             TWO LANGUAGES

ENGLISH = (5+14+7+12+9+19+8) = 74
GEMATRIA = (7+5+13+1+20+18+9+1) = 74
LANGUAGE = (12+1+14+7+21+1+7+5)   = 68


If you look carefully at the Olive Branch you will note
that there are 6 berries on the _upper_ and 8 berries
on the _lower_ part of the branch. This upper/lower
combination refers to the number 68, the gematric value
of LANGUAGE. The language then, is one of the keys
to knowledge. But, there are two languages, both
with gematric value 74 (FRUIT). ENGLISH, used for
every day speech and all general information. And
GEMATRIA, used to convey very precise information
and scientific facts, or true knowledge.

English has the advantage of being very flexible
in its multitudinous _interpretations_ and so it
is an effective language to make the truth obscure.
Hence, this is the language of the face of the Bill.

Gematria has the advantage of making things very
precise, by refering back to numbers and specific
ways to combine them without any ambiguity of
meaning. So, this is used to convey true knowledge.
Evidence can be found in the many scientivic ratios
found on the back of the bill -- where real knowledge
is hidden.

Combining Gematria and English makes the limited Gematria
more flexible, yet avoiding the depths of the abyss
achievable by just English alone. Thus English-Gematria
is a viable way to represent true knowledge. And
a simple examination of the Dollar Bill reveals this
power. By combining English and Gematria, I specifically
refer to the re-interpretation of gematric results
by resolving them back into English, using Temura
and Notariqon, in the process English --> Gematria
calculations --> Gematric Results --> English
rendering.


Examples of FIVE in history...

                    FIVE PRESIDENTS
                   FIVE BOOKS OF MOSES
                         etc..

                  FIVE KINDS OF GRAIN
Tsze-lu, following the Master, happened to fall behind, when he
met an old man, carrying across his shoulder on a staff a basket
for weeds. Tsze-lu said to him, "Have you seen my master, sir?"
The old man replied, "Your limbs are unaccustomed to toil; you
cannot distinguish the five kinds of grain:-who is your master?"
[ Confusius, Analects pg.18 ]


                      FIVE MINISTERS
The Master said, "How majestic was the manner in which Shun and
Yu held possession of the empire, as if it were nothing to them!
The Master said,"Great indeed was Yao as a sovereign! How majestic
was he! It is only Heaven that is grand, and only Yao corresponded
to it. How vast was his virtue! The people could find no name for
it. "How majestic was he in the works which he accomplished! How
glorious in the elegant regulations which he instituted!"
 Shun had five ministers, and the empire was well governed.


                 FIVE MEN ON A BOUNDARY
                 (or five men in a boat :)

Articles of Confederation
Agreed to by Congress November 15, 1777;
ratified and in force, March 1, 1781
(note the _5_ years from 1776 for empowerment)
ARTICLE IX.
The United States in Congress assembled shall also be
the last resort on appeal in all disputes and differences now
subsisting or that hereafter may arise between two or more
States concerning boundary, ... Congress shall name _3_
persons out of each of the United States, and from the
list of such persons each party shall alternately strike
out one, the petitioners beginning, until the number shall
be reduced to _13_; and from that number not less than
_7_, nor more than _9_ names as Congress shall direct,
shall in the presence of Congress be drawn out by lot,
and the persons whose names shall be so drawn or any
_5_ of them, shall be commissioners or judges, to hear and
finally determine the controversy,....

Note: Here the founders are expressly making use of the
fact that 5 pips constitute the vesica piscis region
in the boundary between two spheres to suggest the number
5 for the judges to sit in arbitration of the boundary dispute
between two states - suggesting they were aware of the
of 5-pips to a boundary.

Note the five leaves on the boundary of the shield and the
edge of the white background paper on the front of the
Bill in the upper left and right 1. Rep. the 5 pips in
the fish-leaf.

-----------
Executive power --
and if no person have a majority, then from the five highest
on the list the said House shall in like manner choose the
President -- U.S. Constitution Article Two : Section 1


Again, the first thing to come out of a new creation
process is the five Fruits or berries, suggesting the
first collections to naturally be the number five.



               FIVE PECKS OF RICE

22. The constellation Dong-dou. The firmament is divided
in five directions, each of which is governed by one of the
five constellations, wu-dou, The Five Dippers. Most important
of these is The Northern Dipper, Bei-dou, The Big Dipper,
whose appearence has given rise to the name. A dou is moreover
a commonly used grain measure, often translated by _peck_.
Even as such it plays a part within religious Taoism, the
sect of The Celestial Masters, tian-shi-dao, in its early
stage at the end of the Han dynasty being nicknamed wu-dou
mi-dou, _the way of five-pecks-of-rice_, ostensibly because
this was the amount of rice demanded from each of the members
of the sect as contribution to the common reserves. This
usage is mentioned in San-guo-zhi in the biography of Zhang Lu,
It is shown by Hou Ching-Lang, from texts belonging to the
period of the first Celestial Masters, that the practice of
contribution of rice is also related to the belief in
celestial treasuries. These treasuries seem in some traditions
to be situated in The Five Dippers, where they play a part
in the original allocation of life to the individual. The
purpose of the contribution of rice is thus to create
and augment in the celestial treasuries a fund of destiny,
which corresponds to the length of life and the
salvation of each individual. [ pg 31-32, PA ]

[PA] The Method of Holding Three Ones - A Taoist Manual
     of Meditation of the Fourth Century A.D
     by Poul Anderson, Curzon Press. ISBN 0 7007 0113 3,
     or ISBN 0142 6208

The True Talismans of Tai-ji-di-jun are a set of sixteen
talismans, to be written on white paper and eaten on
sixteen consecutive days, beginning from each of the
eight major festival days, with the effect that The
Three Ones of the body are called upon by The Most High,
Tai-shang, to protect the body of the adept. The talismans
may also be placed in an embroidered bag and suspended from
the head of the adept, with the effect that after five years
The Three Ones can be seen. [ pg 16, PA ]


Face of dollar Bill - 16 Talismans on White background

1. The Black Block Letters
2. The White Letters
3. The Grey Letters - ONE
4. The Green Letters - Serial No
5-6. The Two Signatures
7. The Leaves
8. The Berries
9. The Fed Seal
10. The Treasury Seal
11-14. The Four Distinguishable Shields
15. The Bottom Loops - 16 consecutive days left/right
16. The Two Fish
These all surround the Head of the Protrait of
George Washington, for whome the talismans are
intended and are Bagged in The Grey Spider Web.



What theory huh?
Symbols have more than one interpretation.
That's a mouthful.

:)

pmj



Date: 12-25-96 (04:26)              Number: 123 of 508 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR  ROGER M  FIRESTONE
Subj: Re: The Real Secret of the FIVE Berries
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry,alt.illuminati
Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet <info@cais.com>
Message-ID: <59qact$12s@news2.cais.com>

>Why do masons keep talking of conspiracy? Why is it
>so much on their minds? There is no conspiracy. I have
>repeatedly stated that is my view. Things are the way they
>are. That's that. No one is trying to conspire against
>masons, and masons are not conspiring against anyone.
[snip]
>Or, has the universe conspired against
>masons because it has decieved them with another show
>of cable tows and silver cords to make them believe they
>have some kind of special knowledge?


If you can't recognize a parody when you read it and can ignore the
closing line "Satirically yours," and then go on to post nonsense about
"cable tows and silver cords," you have got to be dumber than a stump.
And if you think it is Masons who talk of a conspiracy, rather than the
anti-Masons who bring this up over and over again, then the stump really
has you beat by a country mile.  Masons don't write of an anti-Masonic
conspiracy because a conspiracy must by definition have an illegal
object.  Spreading lies isn't illegal, just immoral.  Anti-Masonry isn't
a conspiracy, it's a delusion.

And if you can find in my writings anywhere that I claim Masons possess
"special knowledge," I'd appreciate the reference so that I can correct
it; in that case it would appear that I had written something other than
what I meant.

The difference between Masons--the ones who are Masons for real and not
just guys with dues cards--and the profane--the real profane, not the
ones who are Masons in their hearts but have never petitioned a
Lodge--is not in what we know, but in what we believe in and in what we
do.

Masons don't have any mystical secrets of the Kabbalah that give them
power and wealth; if they did, this would be a different world already.
Instead, we have the open secret that it is better to do good than evil,
better to take action than to be uninvolved, better to stand for the
truth than allow a lie to pass.  Maybe this is "special knowledge"
because so few believe it in these times, but it is knowledge that has
been available to all since the Mosaic Law was committed to parchment
millenia ago.

Try reading what is written, rather than what you'd like to see; maybe
you'd make more sense...

Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH



Date: 12-27-96 (01:34)              Number: 224 of 508 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: rfire@cais2.cais.com, DR  ROGER M  FIRESTONE
Subj: Re: The Real Secret of the FIVE Berries
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry,alt.illuminati
Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet <info@cais.com>
Message-ID: <59v92e$hn2@news2.cais.com>

>There must be something special about a Grand Master. Otherwise,
>why make the effort to become one?

Some people enjoy power and prestige, some people enjoy the opportunity
to serve, some people want to challenge themselves, some people pursue
titles and honors.  Why do some people want to become governor, mayor,
or president?

The only thing "special" about the Grand Master is that his is the
absolute power of governance of the Craft in his jurisdiction during his
term.  If they had some kind of special occult knowledge, perhaps they
would govern better, but they are all too human, as all Masons know.
Some have been great leaders (A. Douglas Smith of Virginia comes to
mind), some have been mediocrities (no names please), and some have been
pernicious influences (again, no names).  Just like leaders of
corporations, of churches, of countries.

>But, it would interest me to know whether the book _Masonic Initiation_
>by W.L. Wilmshurst, is a masonic book or an anti-masonic publication.
>Published by Kessinger Pub. ISBN 1-56459-147-6
>I appreciate knowing that little detail. That's the source of my
>special knowledge confusion.

Wilmshurst wrote a lot about Masonry, but he only expressed his own
opinions, and some of those were not widely accepted, such as his ideas
about Masonry as a Christian institution.  Wilmshurst was also British,
and his writings are not especially reflective of Masonic practice in
other countries.

As Alexander Pope wrote, "a little learning is a dangerous thing..."
Trying to understand Freemasonry from the outside, by reading books
written for experienced and very knowledgeable Masons, is not going to
accomplish much.  There are some books written for outsiders (such as _A
Pilgrim's Path_ by John Robinson) that would do you a lot more good.  I
would not only not recommend Wilmshurst to a profane (non-Mason) but
neither would I use his works as instruction for any Mason not already
familiar with more conventional studies in the Craft.

You can't learn physics by starting with SU(3) theory of particle
families; you start with basic mechanics (kinematics and statics and
dynamics).  You can't learn mathematices by starting with Banach spaces;
you start with arithmetic and geometry.  And you can't learn Masonry by
starting with the most complex and advanced books, either.  Start at the
beginning, with Carl Claudy and the Robinson book already mentioned.
Become familiar with what most Masons believe about the Craft before you
explore the dusty corners of the halls of learning.

Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH




Date: 01-04-97 (18:01)              Number: 311 of 508 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: PLZ@macbroker.com, PATRICE
Subj: Re: Amaranth's Swedish Beginnings (Repost)
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry,alt.masonic.members
Organization: InterServ News Service
Message-ID: <AEF44B71966818DBCB@ld28-189.compuserve.com>

In article <5agjs0$3tk@news.crocker.com>,
ness2@crocker.com (Marie Paige) wrote:

>It again appears in France when the Lodges of Adoption were
>organized about 1730, each of which was under the control of a
>Masonic Lodge until June 10, 1974, when the Grand Orient of France
>by an Edict assumed control  of all Lodges of Adoption.

There must be some confusion here. (not more than 200 years, though)

The Lodges of adoption possibly appeared in France in the 18th century.
According to Henri Felix Marcy (1881 - 1963) who was a great historian of
Masonry as well as a dignitary of the Grand Orient of France, those Lodges
were created by regular Masons whose aim was to satisfy women's curiosity,
make slanders about the Craft quiet and eventually give a greater appeal to
some Masonic feasts. The oldest known of these Lodges, Marcy wrote, is La
felicite in the city of Dieppes which existed between 1766 and 1773.

On June 10, 1774 (here I think is the confusion with 1974), the GOdF
decided, at the suggestion of its Grand Orator, Bro. Bacon de la
Chevalerie, to "take them into consideration" and imposed them rules and a
Ritual.

In 1901, the Grande Lodge of France tried to help them flying off and
modernised the Ritual. In 1906 a Constitution and Regulations were imposed
to them. Many adoption Lodges were created between 1901 and 1935 when the
GLoF decided to grant them independance.

In 1945 was created "l'Union Maconnique Feminine" later named Grande Loge
Feminine de France (1952), which marked the end of the Lodges of Adoption.

One Lodge of the GLFF still works, for historical purposes, the former Rite
of Adoption, the others work the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite since
1959.

Friendliest regards,

Patrice
Loge l'Etoile #1001
Grande Loge de France, Paris



Date: 01-04-97 (19:59)              Number: 318 of 508 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: smc9596mwf@aol.com, SMC9596MWF
Subj: Re: Masters Hats
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Message-ID: <19970104195700.OAA27127@ladder01.news.aol.com>

In article <5akh51$ll8@darla.visi.com>, jot@visi.com (J. Otto Tennant)
writes:

>The plain fact of the matter is that there are very few men of my
>generation (the "baby boomers") who have enough moral sense to even
>consider Masonry.  Every Lodge, every Vally, every Commandery, every
>Mosque must prepare a strategic plan which recognizes the simple
>fact that we can't recruit from a lost generation.

As a new Entered Apprentice (I go for my FellowCraft Jan. 21), and as a
member of Gen.X, I have to vigorously disagree with this statement.  Men
with high moral standards are a rarity in any generation.  Do you think
that in the Revolutionary War period, every single person in our nation
was a great man?  No.  In fact, the only "heroes" from that time that we
here about were of the elite, America's aristocracy, the few who could
afford to take time away from their fields and shops to debate virtues of
honor and freedom.
If you believe a generation to be lost, then, I assure you, it is lost.
Lost to you, but not to me.  Last year, I was State Master Councilor of
Maryland DeMolay, and I worked with a terrific group of young men and had
the wonderful opportunity to meet other DeMolay leaders from throughout
the nation, and I think that each and everyone of them would say that that
single attitude is what is destroying our fraternity(ies) more than
anything else.  Apathy kills!
If we aren't drawing people into the Craft, it is not because a generation
does not have the moral sense to join, rather, it is because WE are not
doing enough to let them know of the good works that WE do.  Instead of
complaining about a problem, do something about it.

If not me, who? If not now, when?
If we always do what we have always done, the way we have always done it,
we will always get what we always got!

Fraternally,


Michael Farlow
EA Wicomico Lodge #91 AF&AM


Date: 01-10-97 (17:42)              Number: 515 of 541 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: yollie@azstarnet.com, WILLY
Subj: Re: Are Blue Lodges Hoodwinked??
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: Starnet
Message-ID: <yollie.204.0020C903@azstarnet.com>

Brothers,
I did not realize what I was starting when I first posted this
thread. The replies are the best I have read in a long time. Even some humor.
The R.W. Senior Grand Warden of Arizona gave a talk at a stated meeting in
Tucson this week where in he stated that Arizona is hoping to implement
opening on the first degree. This has been a dream of mine since the first
night I took my E.P. obligation and was told I could not attend until I did
the M.M. obligation. I darned near dropped out. Asmany of you have said it is
so important for a person to feel he is a part of an organization and most of
all wanted. I also feel by allowing E.P. and F.C. to attend we the "old Hands"
will have a better chance to get to know them. As it is now how does one base
his vote? It seems to me we tend to vote" y" if he looks like he can pay his
dues. This is not saying much for our Fraternity.

Thanks for the imput. Good threads are the fun part of this sight,

W. E. Caldwell P.M. Nogales #11


Date: 01-11-97 (08:13)              Number: 517 of 541 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: jims@cybervault.com, JAMES R  SANTSAVER, SR
Subj: Women in a Fraternity?
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: Compuaide
Message-ID: <01bbff95$e0a8f600$6ca21dce@Jims>

Imagine a Fraternity with women, or a sorority with men...
What would be the purpose?

Those within our ancient and honorable fraternity know in their
hearts that "Peace and Harmony" are the underlying pins which
bind us together as a social order.

As some lodges can attest, it is hard enough to get a group
of men to get along, let alone considering the "Yang" or
negative charges of women, or the raging of mad men and fools!

Please don't misconstrue "negative" to be a condescending stance,
as both "positive" and "negative" are merely different sides of the same
coin.  Modern Biologist have confirmed the differences
between "Male" and "Female" thought processes.  In short, men
tend to think with a Macro mind, while women see more at the Micro
level.

The laws of duality might better help us to understand that
You can not have light without darkness.
You can not right without left.
or as the ancient Orientals believed...
You can not have Yin without Yang
Such is the law of our Universe...
The two opposites are distinctly different yet
dependent upon one another for their mere existence...

In my humble opinion, the most fundamental purpose
of ancient order, and why we have separated from our
opposite counterparts, is to allow a convergence of
male energy, a.k.a. "brotherly love", that will help
eventually raise our level of universal consciousness.
You might have heard it as: "to make good men better"


Fraternally,

J. Santsaver,
JW Camelback Daylight #75
Scottsdale, AZ.

PS:  If female initiations were to become just and legally constituted,
I would be the first to request the post of Senior Deacon ;-)

ALSO:  I am thinking of setting up an authenticated Usenet Server
Dedicated to Freemasonry.  If you are interested please, contact me!


Date: 01-11-97 (16:08)              Number: 521 of 541 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: gdrewes@oln.com, GLEN DREWES
Subj: Masonic Mailing List
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Message-ID: <32d7bb01.171860@news.oln.com>

This is intended to be a comprehensive and accurate list of Masonic
mailing lists.

Please eMail me if there are to be any corrections that you know of.

Glen Drewes
gdrewes@oln.com
_____________________________________________________

MASONIC MAILING LISTS:

1)  freemasonry-list is a lightly moderated (disruptive posters
eventually get booted off) eMail list.

To subscribe, send eMail to

	FreeMasonry@sara.zia.com

with the subject left blank.(If your software does not allow a
"blank", then put LIST in this area.

In the body of the text type: SUBSCRIBE <your name>

To post to this list, send eMail to

	FreeMasonry@sara.zia.com



2)  masonic-youth is a discussion list for the appendant youth orders
(Rianbow, DeMolay, Job's, etc).

To subscribe, send eMail to

	masonic-youth-request@nyx10.cs.du.edu

with the SUBJECT:  SUBSCRIBE <your name>

To post to the list, send eMail to

	masonic-youth@nyx10.cs.du.edu



3)  jodera-l is a roundtable discussion forum for adults and senior
members interested in encouraging, promoting, and supporting the
Masonic Youth Groups known as Job's Daughters, Rainbow,  and DeMolay.


To subscribe, send eMail to

	jodera-l-request@eskimo.com

with SUBSCRIBE JODERA-L <your name> in the body of the message.



4)  FAMWA-L is a closed, unmoderated list created for the use of
Freemasons who are interested in exchanging information about upcoming
Masonic Family activities within the State of Washington or adjacent
locations and for the general exchange of information proper to be
made public.

Closed means subscription is limited to regular Masons and members of
Concordant Bodies of Freemasonry.

To subscribe, send eMail to

	famwa-l-request@eskimo.com

with SUBSCRIBE FAMWA-L <your name> in the body of the message.



5)  ukmason-list is a closed, unmoderated list for the benefit of UK
Masons.  This means that only Masons recognised by UGLE as regular may
subscribe.

To subscribe, send eMail to

	LISTSERV@LISTSERV.NETFORCE.NET

with the subject: (left blank)

and in the body of the text: SUBSCRIBE UKMASON-LIST

You will then receive an auto-generated eMail showing you how to join.


6)  The Australian Masonic Mailing List is intended for communications
primarily between Masons and other interested persons in the
Australian region.  The list is open to any and all interested
persons.

To subscribe, send eMail to

	listserv@beastmaster.hna.com.au

with "SUBSCRIBE OZ-MASON" in the body of the message.

A message to the above address with "HELP" in the body will get you
further information on the commands available to you.



7)  RainboWeb is a lightly-moderated mailing-list for the discussion
of issues related to Rainbow Girls and the Internet.

To subscribe, or if you have any questions regarding this list send
eMail to:

	  schildress@randomhouse.com



8)  Mormon-Masons is a mailing list for the discussion of topics
related to Freemasonry and Mormonism.  The list is open to all, but
requires that 'you leave your flamethrower at the door'.

To subscribe send eMail to

	majordomo@sara.zia.com

with SUBSBRIBE mormon-masons <first name last name> in the body of the
message.



9)  Nebraska DeMolay Listerv

To subscribe send eMail to

	listserv@oasysnet.gonix.com

with SUBSCRIBE DEMLIST in the body of the message.



10)  Masonry Universal...is a Masonic eMail magazine, or eZine.

To subscribe,  send eMail to

	subscribe-mu@beastmaster.hna.com.au

Tp receive the (very out of date) FAQ, send eMail to

	mu_faq@beastmaster.hna.com.au

To receive a recent issue, send eMail to

	mu_recent@beastmaster.hna.com.au

To unsubscribe, send eMail to:

	unsubscribe-mu@beastmaster.hna.com.au

To change address, unsubscribe from the old address, and then
subscribe from the new address.

No special wording is required in the Subject: line, or in the body of
the eMail.  It will not be read by a human being.

Masonry Universal... is edited by Wor. Bro. Gordon Charlton

	gordon@charlton.demon.co.uk

Information about Masonry Universal...  is also available at these
World Wide Web sites:

ftp://thelonious.mit.edu/pub/Masonry/Misc/masonry-universal.html
http://www.gryffin.com/mu
http://www.southwind.net:80/~btalbott/mucovers.html
http://coyote.accessnv.com/cards/mu.html


Date: 01-14-97 (03:42)              Number: 587 of 589 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: hypnosis@pacbell.net, EUGENE GOLDMAN ·
Subj: Re: An interested third party
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: His personal offices
Message-ID: <32daf8d2.7046029@pbinews.pacbell.net>
Reply-To: hypnosis@pacbell.net

On Sun, 12 Jan 1997 23:46:32 -0800, wilcox@sendmail.com wrote:

>Jonathan Russell wrote:
>>
>> It strikes me that the mystery the surrounds freemasonry is part of the
>> reason why people first want to become a freemason. What do you do, and
>> what do you stand for.

What we do varies from Lodge to Lodge, but we are a fraternity devoted
to inculcating the Virtues Brotherly Love, Relief, Truth, Tolerance,
Temprence, Fortitude, Prudence, Justice, Faith, Hope and Charity.
Collectively we spend over $1,500,000 of our own money (no
fund-raisers outside the fraternity) in charity.
>>
>> One posted message above indicates that the Bible is implicated. Does this
>> mean that the freemasons is a Christian organisation? Or does it go deeper
>> than that and is it a religion of its own right?

No and No.  Masonry is a study of Morality and Ethics.  Several
Biblical references are cited and quoted, because they contain
valuable lessons on Morality.  Masonry does not do anything that would
make it a religion:  No sancerdotal functions, no sacrements, no path
to G-d, no salvation, no definition of sin or of grace, no salvational
teaching, no common theology, no prayer litergy, not even a religious
tax exemption.

Masonry welcomes those of every country, sect and opinion.  The only
requirements are that you be freeborn, have a belief in a Supreme
Being (known by whatever Name you wish<s>), and be of good moral
character.
>>
>> I have lots of questions that I will not even dream of asking at this
>> stage. If anyone would like to tell me more, then please do get in touch.

Please feel free to e-mail me with your questions.  I will be most
happy to give you timely, frank, honest answers.

>And I would like to ask a question (as an interested third party!).  Are
>practising homosexuals allowed to be masons?

I am involved in this same discussion in another venue on this very
topic.  There are, as I see it, two issues here.
1.)  The fraternity has no prohibition, in any Grand Lodge
Constitution, against this.  The requirements I listed above are all
there is.  So, from a "legal" perspective - yes they are.

2) Most importantly, membership in the fraternity is always a matter
of free will.  Every member of every Lodge is such because he is
willing to be, and because the members of that Lodge were, when he
petitioned, willing to allow him to be.  In most jurisdictions,
membership is by a unanimus ballot, in others by all but one, two or
three. I am unaware of any Grand Lodge that grants membership to an
applicant with more than three votes against, and most require
unanimity.

Hence, the problem that exists is a strictly practical one.  While a
person's sexual preference is not a valid Masonic criteria for
balloting, many members of society consider it immoral, which
certainly begs the question.  The situation is further compounded by
three factors.

1.  Voting is anonymous, and no member may be compelled to surrender
his rights in this reguard.

2.  We, like the society we are part of, have in our midst those who
are more set in their ways, and less tolerant than we would prefer. (I
hope I said that correctly, don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.)

3.  Most importantly, Masonry requires us to be true to our religions,
but never defines what those religions should be.  Masonry requires us
to be good citizens, but does not define what constitutes patriotism.
Masonry requires us to be of good Morals, but leaves the definition of
Morality up to us.  Some, less tolerant, perhaps, would consider it
immoral to be a homosexual, and thus feel they have justification for
voting against.

If this is a real concern, I would suggest that the person in question
get to know a few of the members of the Lodge he wishes to join.  Get
an impression from them on how welcome he might be or if there are any
obsticles(sp) in the way (read the members I discuss above).  If so,
look into other Lodges.

Rejecting an applicant because of sexual preference is not a valid
criteria, but it does happen.   At the same time, there are (I am
sure) homosexuals that are Masons, just as there are some that are in
just about every group.  Perhaps a little quiet research might
benificial (Woops! I almost said "fruitful" and I did so want this to
be serious. Oh well.).

Again, feel free to e-mail me if you wish.

Be well. Travel with a light heart.

Eugene Goldman P.·. M.·.

Blackmer Lodge #442, San Diego, Ca.
Black Mountain Masonic Lodge, U.D., San Diego, Ca.
Southern Ca. Research Lodge
A.A.S.R., Valley of San Diego

May Brotherly Love forever prevail,
  and every moral and social Virtue cement us.

If you can read this, you have gone too far!


Date: 01-15-97 (18:25)              Number: 617 of 628 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: boaz@olywa.net, KAK VAS
Subj: The benefit of starting Freemason lodges in our prisons
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Message-ID: <01bc0311$9e518040$072eefc6@hicksr>

Here in the GL of Washington one may be convicted of a felony (even your
second) while holding an office in a Freemasonic Lodge and not be expelled
though, of course, one is subject to that possibility but also the lesser
suspension or even only a reprimand and/or nothing at all.  We recently had
this confirmed in fact through a Masonic trial January of this year.  We
also recognize that Freemasonry's declining membership is of great concern
to most of the brothers who hold positions of power in our Fraternity and
that the idea that one should advertise the good Freemasons do in every
legitimate way not only on the level of a Grand Lodge, but a Lodge, and
even as an individual by proudly displaying the symbols as personal
adornment.  Isn't there a way we could accomplish these goals by fostering
the development of Freemasonic lodges in our prison systems.  Not for
everyone of course.  But for those who have been convicted of tax evasion,
or drug use or even theft (for instance) but who have also seen the error
of their ways and are willing to take the obligations.  There are a lot of
gangs and other negative groups in prisons and few associations one can
belong to for positive reinforcement.  Freemasonry would be perfect for
this.  Some of the brothers are started to consider how this might be done.
 Any ideas?



Date: 01-15-97 (13:16)              Number: 619 of 628 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: philip.mak@miles.sprint.com, MACKER
Subj: Re: Operation John the Baptist
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,alt.freemasonry,alt.gathering,rainbow,alt.good.n
ews,alt.government.abuse,alt.illuminati,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.individualism
Message-ID: <32DD1F13.5A8E@miles.sprint.com>
Reply-To: philip.mak@miles.sprint.com

Night Shade wrote:
>
> In article <5b8kcu$t9b@news.esva.net>, burke@liquidation.com says...
<SNIP>
>
> Here's where we differ.  It's my personal belief that abortion IS murder
> and it is not a deed I would do. But it would be a grave injustice to my
> neighbour if I were to insist that he/she also believe as I do.  I am
> responsible for only my own actions and my neighbour is responsible for
> theirs!
>
I am an advocate of free choice, but I would have to somewhat disagree
with your above statement.  You are saying, in your posting, that people
should be free to do whatever they believe in, which is fine.  However,
where do we draw the line to this freedom if our actions happen to
affect the lives of others? e.g. should a serial killer be free to
murder whomever he pleases because of his right to a freedom of choice?
Would it be a 'grave injustice' to try and disuade someone from going
out every night to rape and murder innocent people?  Would it be
unreasonable to try and stop a pedophile from molesting a 7 year-old
child?  From your standpoint, if I tried to hinder these people I'd be
doing a grave injustice to their freedom, and should mind my own
business.  I disagree, I think these people should be locked-up.  They
don't deserve the freedom that they are entitled to, and should not be
allowed to roam freely in our society.  I mean these people are screwing
up other people's lives in a major way and I don't think an individual's
freedom of choice includes the freedom to toy with other lives.
  In closing, if you feel *that* strongly about abortion truly being
murder but at the same time also hold strong beliefs that other people
should be free to have abortions as they please, it would be logical to
assume that you also feel that the murderer of a living person shouldn't
be kept under control because it is his own choice to kill and we
shouldn't impose our beliefs on him.  Somehow, I don't think that is
what you're trying to portray.
  Some form of control (albeit not a lot) is necessary in society,
without it, I think we would be in a lot more trouble than we are now.

> >Once again I pose this question to you this day,
> >Shall I Stand for Life ? or Shall I Stand for Death ?
> And once again, I say,
> I STAND FOR FREE CHOICE !
>
> These opinions are the sole responsibility of ladyjess@montana.com who
> is proud to be a free thinker and an advocate of free choice !
>


Date: 01-13-97 (13:07)              Number: 629 of 649 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: brian@peacock.demon.co.uk, BRIAN COLE
Subj: Re: what about females?
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: :)
Message-ID: <1fztZEAfOj2yEw29@peacock.demon.co.uk>

In article <32D643EA.520A@chbs.mhs.ciba.com>, "Mart." <martin.green@chbs
.mhs.ciba.com> writes
>
>The reason for the exclusion of women most probably has very good reasons
>linked to the origins of FMry, as far as I am aware there is no blindingly
>obvious reason for the exclusion of women. It would be interesting to know
>if there were female medieval Stonemasons working on religous constructions.
>

One of the requirements for entry into freemasonry is that one is "... a
free man of mature age ...". I believe that women were still considered
chattels in the early days of freemasonry. A chattel is not free.

Also, women were not usually educated in the 18th century (other than as
necessary for running a house). Freemasonry is meant to encourage study,
yet men were the only people educated to a level where they could
undertake such studies.

Perhaps a couple of reasons why early freemasonry excluded women?

--
Brian Cole


Date: 01-15-97 (04:57)              Number: 636 of 649 (Refer# NONE)
  To: ALL
From: candid@hotmail.com, CANDID
Subj: Re: Freemason Felons
Read: (N/A)                         Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE
Conf: alt.freemasonry (12)       Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+)

Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry
Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA)
Message-ID: <32db1a7b.10713831@news.uoknor.edu>
Reply-To: candid@hotmail.com

On 13 Jan 1997 11:14:50 -0500, nyts@dorsai.org (New York Theosophical
Society) wrote:
<snip>
>	The vote appeared to me to be not so much as a prohibition of
>felons being excluded, as a giving of some flexibility. There is more
>than one kind of felon, remember. There is the kind we normally think of,
>such as the bank robber, the mugger, the burglar, the arsonist, the drug
>dealer, etc. There is also the kind of felon who acts in good conscience,
>and is acting in a moral and proper manner, while it is the government
>that is acting in an illegal manner, or at least a manner in which the
>felon is morally certain is illegal. Consider the famous example of the
>Founding Fathers, who were felons all. Or consider the state of Texas,
>where it was recently shown (in the trial of the Branch Davidians) that
>killing a law enforcement officer, even if the officer is acting
>illegally and one is acting in self-defense, is still a felony. Let's say
>a brother has evidence of corruption of a law-enforcement officer, and
>the officer attempts to murder the brother to keep him quiet, and the
>brother kills the officer in self-defense. Would you kick him out of the
>Masons, even though he has committed a felony?

i completely agree with you.  there are cases where the government is
not a just one, and a "felony" occurs because of the breaking of an
unjust law.  i can think of many examples, such as freeing slaves
(when slavery was legal), some cases of "vigilantism," and for some
revolutions (and revolutionary occurances).  other examples would be
for those protestors in tienanmen square, chechan rebels, or our own
revolutionaries (which included many masons).

it also reminds me of a story (true, as well).  a man had a son.  the
little boy was raped and murdered by another man.  the criminal was
found and was being transported in an airport.  the father acted like
he was making a phone call in the airport, and when the criminal
walked by he turned around and shot him.  the father became a felon.
the criminal became dead.  who is right and who is wrong?  it can be
hard to judge (especially if it was your son that was raped and
murdered).  ---by the way, the father received a guilty verdict,
punishable by probation...who says there's no justice?;)

also, it may not be known by many that in most states it is a felony
to commit adultery.  how many men in your lodge are guilty of this,
and how many have gotten divorced because of it?

also, wasn't it said that masons would be the brothers to pirates and
corsairs?  wouldn't they be felons?  what i'm getting at is that it is
all a matter of perspective, and each situation involves individual
attention.  let's not be too quick to judge, but then again let's not
forget that we have obligations to uphold.

sorry for the length...my 2 cents has grown!;)


nathan s.
okc #36, af&am