Date: 09-05-96 (14:04) Number: 142 of 158 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: hypnosis@pacbell.net, EUGENE GOLDMAN · Subj: Re: Women and Freemasons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: His personal offices Message-ID: <322F4064.34E3@pacbell.net> Dr. Roger M. Firestone wrote: > > In article <01bb9b26$c7225880$204907c4@rethea.leisureplan.co.za>, > Rethea Deetlefs wrote: > >Now I am completely confused. Women still can't be Freemasons? And why not? sundry information on Masonically-based organizations sniped > It is my opinion that this stems from the former relationship of women > being nearly chattel and ought to be eliminated from our organization. > Like all groups with centuries of tradition, change comes slowly, but I > believe that this will happen. But I don't think that women will be > admitted into 'regular' Freemasonry any time soon, if ever. > > Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH This is absolutely untrue! I know, personally and through on-line services, no less than 4 (four) women who are Masons, raised in REGULAR Lodges, Chartered under REGULAR Grand Lodges. Now, my own Grand Lodge has no amity with these Grand Lodges, and would not look kindly at my visiting these, but there ARE women Masons! One Lady I know is the wife of a member of my Lodge. I have had the pleasure of introducing them to new Masons, "May I introduce Worshipful Barnes, and his wife Worshipful Barnes" usually to shocked looks of disbelief and surprise. To qoute a friend of mine, and very knowledgeable Mason, Past Master of the Southern California Research Lodge, "To pretend that there are no women Masons is as silly as pretending (as the USA did for many years) that 300,000,000 people did not exist, simply because we did not 'recognise' them". There is a BIG BIG difference between being Regular and being Recognised. The only similarity seems to be that both words begin with the same letter, at least in English. Co-Masonry and Ladies' Masonry (two completely different "branches" of the Masonic "tree" (hi Janet!) are real, exist - even thrive, and are populated by Women who go through the exact same Degrees as you and I did. Their Lodges are Chartered by Grand Lodges that are organized exactly as ours are, albeit with different Jurisdictions, but then so is UGLE. There is little more difference between Male-only Masonry and Female Masonry (Co- or Ladies') than there is between mainstream Masonry and Prince Hall Masonry. In fact the two comparisons are almost identical if you go a dozen years into the past. At that time many were saying (also wrongly) that PH was "irregular" or that there was no predominantly Black Masonry. Now, today, we cannot (thankfully) get away with this inacuracy. today it is Females as Masons that some are saying either do not exist or are "irregular". The FACT of the matter is that these GLs are "unrecognised" by mainstream GLs, and, sadly, are likely to remain so for a long time. But to claim that there are no female Masons is folly. Sorry to have been up here so long, but this soap box is a comfortable place to stand. The view is great! I feel so tall! -- Be well. Travel with a light heart. Gene Goldman P.·. M.·. Blackmer Lodge #442, San Diego, Ca. Black Mountian Masonic Club Southern Ca. Research Lodge A.A.S.R., Valley of San Diego If you can read this, you have gone too far! Date: 09-07-96 (22:21) Number: 143 of 158 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: wined@voyager.co.nz, DAVID STUART WINEFIELD Subj: Re: GL ancestry question Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Alwin Partners Message-ID: <323257E8.66CE@voyager.co.nz> Alan Tibbetts wrote: > > cliff@iamerica.net (Cliff the Paramedic) wrote: > > >How does a Grand Lodge come into existence? Why does recognition by the > >GL of England seem to be vital? > > Dear Cliff > From my limited knowledge I will try to help. A GL can come into > existence when a few (no real necessary number) Lodges decide to > organize one. Then they try to get others to legitimize it by granting > recognition. England is important as they are the Mother Grand Lodge > of the World. > > >What is the difference between the GL of England and the GL of Scotland? > > Scotland has its own GL founded in 1736 with jurisdiction over all SC > Lodges at home and abroad. Scottish Masonry and English Masonry are > quite different. Ireland started their GL in 1726, so are the second > in precedence. > > >Is this a "roots" thing where various Grand Lodges can trace their origins t o > >a particular "mother" Grand Lodge? > > All GLs can trace their history back to their Mother GL. Sometimes it > is a combination effort, like in parts of Australia where English > Scottish and Irish Lodges all joined together to form a "United" GL. > In America, the western GLs all trace back their existence, and their > particular ritual working to GLs further east or in Europe. Her in > Canada, the western GLs and Quebec GL formed from the Ontario GL, > which was an English Provincial GL before independence. Because > England did not want us to separate, our GL was constituted by the GL > of Michigan, to which we have had warm fraternal ties ever since. > Hope this helps. Fraternal Regards > > Alan Tibbetts MPS > WM Granite 446 GRC > Fort Frances, Ontario, CanadaIt has also been true that in some countries, fo r example in New Zealand, where the division between the "Mother Grand Lodges" ie England, Ireland and Scotland, in this case and the new Native Grand Lodge (of New Zealand) was less than amicable, the original Lodges have retained in some cases their adherence to the Mother Grand Lodges. Thus, in this country we have Lodges adhering to each of the New Zealand, English, Scots and Irish Grand Lodges. It is a matter of some pride to many New Zealand masons, that over a period of one hundred years, the differences have been preserved, and at the level of the individual mason, great feelings of cameraderie have been preserved. For further information on the matter of grand lodges generally, and from the English perspective, can I recommend to you the publications of Quatuor Coronati Lodge London. Any Research or Past masters Lodge will be able to assist you further. All the very best to you all Dave Winefield Auckland New Zealand -- Date: 09-05-96 (14:17) Number: 144 of 158 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: hypnosis@pacbell.net, EUGENE GOLDMAN · Subj: Re: Dual Membership Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: His personal offices Message-ID: <322F436A.3FAA@pacbell.net> Gregory Hunt wrote: > > I am a member of the California and Hawaii Jurisdiction of Prince Hall > Masons. To my knowledge none of the Grand Lodges holding membership in > the Prince Hall Grand Masters Conference which constitutes our family > have in place the concept of dual membership. Since having membership in > a lodge is a pass for admission into other lodges that recognize your > membership, why would there be a need for dual membership? Let me add > this, when I asked the question of someone I was told that it allows you > to support the other lodge. My response to that was you could simply > send the other lodge a donation. Perhaps there is a bigger picture that > I am missing, if so, please explain it. Thanks! > -- > Gregory Hunt, C.L.P.I. > The Internet Connection > http://www.netcom.com/~ghuntnyc/ Well, as you can see, I am a member of two Craft Lodges. I was raised in and served as Master of Blackmer Lodge. I joined Black Mountain Club in order to assist in making a new Lodge nearer to my home, and serving the community in which I live. In my Jurisdiction, in order to derve on a Lodge committee or be an officer, you must be a member of that Lodge. I would never willingly surrender my membership in Blackmer, it means too much to me. I am interested in also serving other Lodges (other than simply financially) and making other contributions also. Why should my ability to contribute be limited by anything other than the time and energy TGAOTU has given me? I understand, and sympathise with the "no man can serve two masters" concept. I just do not see the need to impose boundaries that TGAOTU chose not to create. Hows that? -- Be well. Travel with a light heart. Gene Goldman P.·. M.·. Blackmer Lodge #442, San Diego, Ca. Black Mountian Masonic Lodge, U.D. Southern Ca. Research Lodge A.A.S.R., Valley of San Diego If you can read this, you have gone too far! Date: 09-06-96 (20:10) Number: 145 of 158 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: pedrotti@aol.com, PEDROTTI Subj: Re: Dual Membership Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Message-ID: <50qei3$4lk@newsbf02.news.aol.com> In article <32302D4D.5D9D@ix.netcom.com>, Gregory Hunt writes: >I am a member of the California and Hawaii Jurisdiction of Prince Hall >Masons. To my knowledge none of the Grand Lodges holding membership in >the Prince Hall Grand Masters Conference which constitutes our family >have in place the concept of dual membership. Since having membership in >a lodge is a pass for admission into other lodges that recognize your >membership, why would there be a need for dual membership? Let me add >this, when I asked the question of someone I was told that it allows you >to support the other lodge. My response to that was you could simply >send the other lodge a donation. Perhaps there is a bigger picture that >I am missing, if so, please explain it. Thanks! >-- >Gregory Hunt, C.L.P.I. >The Internet Connection >http://www.netcom.com/~ghuntnyc/ Brother Gregory, I suppose there is nothing that a policy permitting dual or plural memberships makes possible that is really impossible, but I think there is strong reason for allowing them. I am a PM of my Mother Lodge in San Francisco, but it's difficult to attend regularly since I moved to Oakland. I fell in love with the Lodge near my new home in Oakland after one visit. Being able to actually join it and not have to give up my long-time membership in my Mother Lodge made it possible for me to remain an active Mason and not only to really feel like a committed participant, but to show that feeling to my Brothers by applying for affiliation with them. I'm now Master of my second Lodge in Oakland, not just a visitor. If these were women, it would be called bigamy, but it's easy to love two Lodges. S&F, Peter Pedrotti, PM, WM Oakland, CA USA Date: 09-08-96 (05:29) Number: 154 of 158 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais2.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Masonic Politicians Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <50tlkm$lvu@news2.cais.com> In article <323093A3.6906@mail.bright.net>, Jack Joyner wrote: >Lowell R. Morrison wrote: [snip] >> Our Vice President Al Gore is a Mason, and a 33rd degree Scottish >> Rite Member. [snip] >How did he get to be a 33? Money will get you to 32, but 33 is supposed >to be something special. Any 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason who achieves political or judicial office in the Federal govt. can pretty well expect to receive the KCCH; i.e., members of the House of Representatives and district judges. Judges at the appellate level and Senators can pretty well expect to receive the 33rd degree. These honors are awarded not only for service to the Craft and the Scottish Rite but also for service to society at large. The currently fashionable contempt for politicians and such has not quite been accepted by the Supreme Council, which still takes the old-fashioned attitude that such individuals are public servants and recognizes their service as such. And no consideration of party is made in selecting those to receive these honors. Perhaps not all who receive recognition for public service deserve it, but I have seen cases of those who have been recognized for service to the Craft rest on their laurels as well. Nor is this a new problem; Pike's words in one of the degrees mention that "those who have risen the highest" are often the most idle and useless of all. As Ecclesiastes wrote, "same old, same old." (Well, he actually said, "there is nothing new under the sun," but we have to be modern, don't we?) Although I have also heard it said that the Albert Gore who received the 33rd degree was not our present VP, but his father, who was also a Senator from Tennessee, and that the VP is not a Mason at all. Anyone know what's correct? Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 09-08-96 (23:29) Number: 181 of 212 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: harpoon@msn.fullfeed.com, JOHN HAGEN Subj: Re: Women and Freemasons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: FullFeed Madison (newsmaster@msn.fullfeed.com) Message-ID: <32339D19.6BE2@msn.fullfeed.com> Rethea Deetlefs wrote: > > Now I am completely confused. Women still can't be Freemasons? And why not? > -- > Rethea Deetlefs > http://www.leisureplan.com/people/retheaIt's interesting, isn't it, that on the honorable road to equality we have lost our perspective. The quest for parity in opportunity, education, and politital and ecomomic access has been diluted and trivialized by the idea that we must be the same in all things and that it is somehow dangerous for men or women to choose to be exclusive in some of their personal activities and associations. There is an event which occurs in my home town call "Take Back The Night" during which women march and demonstrate in response to their unique vulnerability to sexual violence. There have also been a number of gay and lesbian rights demonstrations. I support these efforts. However, I don't feel that I, as a heterosexual male, have the right to intrude on these activities. They belong exclusively to those groups. The presence of interlopers, which is what I would be were I to insist that the principle of equality requires that I be allowed to be in attendance, would only be an unnecessary disruption. Although, unfortunately most masons are only marginally aware of the nature of the fraternity, Freemasonry is a wellspring of male spiritual energy, and, as such, should be encouraged to flourish. We men, in contrast to women, have too few opportunities to experience this. Bottom line...it really isn't necessary for women to be Freemasons. Inevitably, however, women will be accepted eventually and, while what arises from that may be a very good and worthwhile organization, it will no longer be Freemasonry, and we will have lost something singularly valuable. Date: 09-09-96 (16:40) Number: 193 of 212 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rebeccaw@wolfe.net, REBECCA WELLS Subj: Re: Women and Freemasons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C. Message-ID: <511h9q$dma@ratty.wolfe.net> John Hagen (harpoon@msn.fullfeed.com) wrote: : interesting, isn't it, that on the honorable road to equality we : have lost our perspective. The quest for parity in opportunity, : education, and politital and ecomomic access has been diluted and : trivialized by the idea that we must be the same in all things and that : it is somehow dangerous for men or women to choose to be exclusive in : some of their personal activities and associations. There is an event : which occurs in my home town call "Take Back The Night" during which : women march and demonstrate in response to their unique vulnerability to : sexual violence. There have also been a number of gay and lesbian rights : demonstrations. I support these efforts. However, I don't feel that I, : as a heterosexual male, have the right to intrude on these activities. : They belong exclusively to those groups. The presence of interlopers, : which is what I would be were I to insist that the principle of equality : requires that I be allowed to be in attendance, would only be : an unnecessary disruption. With regard to your example above, I don't believe that it helps to illustrate your point. Many, many heterosexual people turn out to march and support gay rights marches because they believe that by *actively* (not just giving lip service) supporting civil rights for all people, their own rights have a better chance of also being supported and upheld. Very similar things happened with regard to the anti-slavery and suffraget movements supporting each other because they realized that the forces of oppression are to be fought on all fronts. If masons do not actively treat women as equals, morally and spiritually, then they are cutting themselves off from a powerful ally, both spiritually and socially. : Although, unfortunately most masons are only : marginally aware of the nature of the fraternity, Freemasonry is a : wellspring of male spiritual energy, and, as such, should be encouraged : to flourish. Is that true? Would you also say that Christianity is a "wellspring of male spiritual energy" because Christ was male? Though Hiram Abif was male, the moral and spiritual *PRINCIPLES* illustrated and taught by Freemasonry, are *UNIVERSAL* and apply to ALL HUMAN BEINGS. Not just MANkind, but generic humanity, as the bible says when you take the trouble to understand the Hebrew in which it was written, instead of just accepting the English translations as they stand and have been passed down as gospel. And yet, even churches of any creed do not exclude women! : We men, in contrast to women, have too few opportunities : to experience this. Bottom line...it really isn't necessary for women : to be Freemasons. Inevitably, however, women will be accepted : eventually and, while what arises from that may be a very good : and worthwhile organization, it will no longer be Freemasonry, and we : will have lost something singularly valuable. Be honest, with yourself and the Creator at least, that you are being selfish in your desire to uphold the exclusion of women from sharing as sisters in that which you find so valuable. Wouldn't the world be a better place if both men and women could work side by side to improve themselves in Masonry? Rebecca Blake (married to a Master Mason) Date: 09-09-96 (13:00) Number: 194 of 212 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: martin.green@chbs.mhs.ciba.com Subj: Re: Masonic Politicians Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Message-ID: <323414EA.5F40@chbs.mhs.ciba.com> Organization: ciba What about Jesus of Nazareth, that carpenter fellow and mean fisherman. Boy could he tell a good story and a dinner party he could cater for 5000 with nothing but a bit of bread and fish. Peace Profound, Mart. Date: 09-09-96 (19:43) Number: 195 of 212 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: "INDEPENDENCE DAY" AND FREEMASONRY Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry,alt.conspiracy,alt.illuminati Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <511s1t$16n@news2.cais.com> I'm sure that Acacia Press very much _does_ know that the acacia is a symbol in Freemasonry; that's why they chose the name for their anti-Masonic operation. Of course, that is about as honest as printing anti-Christian literature under the name "Calvary Press" or anti-semitic literature under the name "Mogen David Press." But did anyone think that "Acacia Press" was an honest and upright operation? Their choice of names for their sleazy activity is clear evidence that they are not to be trusted or believed. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 09-09-96 (19:51) Number: 196 of 212 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Independence Day conspiracy Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.conspiracy.area5,alt.freemaso nry,alt.illuminati,alt.paranet.ufo,alt.alien.research Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <511sgd$1av@news2.cais.com> Only the intensely gullible would confuse Hollywood movies and television shows with reality. The suggestion that the breakup of the Soviet Union was merely a clever trick by the brilliant and ingenious Commies also flies in the face of obvious reality--not only do the many republics have no intention of re-affiliating with Russia in some kind of super-state again, the "fearsome" Russian Army has been having quite a bit of difficulty suppressing further separatist activities in places like Chechnya. Why not worry about something real, like the Social Security/Medicare funding crisis? The growing need for the US government to confiscate ever larger shares of the national income threatens a financial collapse that would cause a lot more problems for the world than the Soviet Union ever did. And BTW, what does this have to do with Freemasonry? So far as I know, there are no aliens in any Masonic Lodge I have visited, and Masonry is unalterably opposed to tyrannies, whether those of Communism and Naziism, or any sort of home-grown one that might be created out of a climate of fear such as you seek to foster. My, the bogon flux is strong these days... Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 09-09-96 (14:55) Number: 197 of 212 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: dave@computek.net, ROBERT DAVIDSON Subj: Secretary's Software Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: CompuNet The Serious Texas Business ISP Message-ID: <32347632.28EC@computek.net> Reply-To: dave@computek.net I am looking for a Windows-based package for Lodge Secretaries, specifically for the State of Texas. Something that has a database back-end for member info, and a forms front-end for meeting minutes, dues cards, rosters, lists and ad-hoc reports. Please reply with any solutions or ideas directly to my e-mail. Discussion about development ideas (assuming there is no existing adequate software) would be eagerly entertained. Thanks. Robert Davidson dave@computek.net Date: 09-08-96 (20:37) Number: 198 of 212 (Refer# NONE) l Date: 09-06-96 (21:48) Number: 199 of 212 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jgbennie@vcn.bc.ca, JIM BENNIE Subj: Nova Scotia Masonic discovery Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Vancouver CommunityNet Message-ID: <50q681$jnr@milo.vcn.bc.ca> We got this story at the office today from CKCL Radio in Truro. Perhaps our Nova Scotia brethren on the newsgroup have more information to add. Jim Bennie PM WM-Elect Lodge Southern Cross #44 Vancouver BC --- Freemason-Bylaws TRURO, N.S. (CP) -- The bylaws of an organization many consider secret have turned up in a time capsule in Truro, Nova Scotia. A copper pot containing the rules of the Freemason society was buried in a building when it was erected in 1902. The structure is now being torn down to make way for the town's new police station. Nan Harvey, the archivist for the Colchester Historical Society, says the documents are in excellent condition. And the Masons want them back. The masons apparently put the secret documents in the time capsule of their own accord, but Harvey says there's some question about whether the bylaws are now public domain. She notes that taxpayers are paying for the demotion of the building. -30- -- Date: 09-08-96 (17:16) Number: 208 of 212 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: hypnosis@pacbell.net, EUGENE GOLDMAN · Subj: Re: Albert Pike Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: His personal offices Message-ID: <323361CE.60EF@pacbell.net> joken@wild.net wrote: > > x-no-archive: yes > > Greetings Eugene! > > Eugene Goldman.·." wrote: > > ->> dsale@southeast.net (Danny Sale) wrote: > ->> ->Anyone know why Albert Pike is the person buried closest to the > ->> ->Whitehouse, and why this will never change? > ->> > ->> No, why? > ->> > ->> Was he a member of a KKK type group as well as a MM? > > ->Ken, you amase me. You have again managed to bring the KKK into a > thread. > ->It really makes one wonder what part of the KKK's agenda you are > trying > ->to promote. You manage to introduce them into every thread you post > in. > > I know it is a sore spot with you but in fact, since masonry allows > them to join, thus they must be considered as having good morals, so > why would you object? By the way, you didn't answer, was he also a > member of the KKK? First off, I have never met a member of the KKK that claimed to be a Mason, but every last one of them, on telivision, radio, and the few I have had the displeasure to meet, have represented themselves as Christians. Do you claim that KKK members (you know them so well) are not allowed to be Christians, or does your Christianity welcome them with open arms? In the second place, it is not the purpose of the fraternity to determine what other groups a Mason may or may not join. His Moral Character is the issue. I know, from previous posts, that you are unable to understand this, so I will move on. Thirdly, I have no idea what organizations Brother Pike was a member of, and quite frankly, I do not care. His writings are interesting, and I happen to agree with *some* of what he wrote. I also disagree with some of it. He was writing his views of the work of the Scottish Rite, of which I am a member, but not active. My larger interest lies with Masonry. > > By the way, what is this "white lodges" stuff I've been reading about > on the ng? Doesn't that smack of the same odor as the KKK? > Where do you get these terms? I have never heard of a "white Lodge". Masonic Lodges are refered to as "Blue Lodges" the color signifying the open sky, under which our ancient Brethren conducted their meetings. I will leave it to you, the news group's resident expert on the KKK to determine if there is any relationship. > ->Whatever your love or fascination with the KKK, I'm sure everyone > here > ->would rather you stop bringing them up. > > Since the kluckers in masonry are your brothers, why would you object > to bringing them up as long it is in a favorable light? Oh, I get it, > another one of those "secrets", eh? Now I understand why another > Gent referred to freemasonry lodges as "White lodges". No, I dislike discussing groups that promote and practice intolerance and bigotry. That is why I read Masonic topics, to read about tolerance and Brotherly Love. Now, for (I hope) the last time, will you drop the KKK discussions. If you want to discuss their membership and activities, find an alt.kkk newsgroup. > > Allow me to ask you this, do you know of _any_ freemasonry lodge that > has a majority of non-white members? What percentage of all > freemasonry lodges in the USA are 95-100% white male only? > What percentage of freemasons in the USA are "non-white"? Well, I know of five of them in San Diego County, three of them I have visited. I have several close friends in Starling J. Hopkins Lodge #88. If you wish, I can ask their Senior Warden for his permission to give you his e-mail address so you can verify what I say. Given your passion for the KKK, however, I cannot predict how open he will be to getting mail from you. > > I am sure that when you post the above requested figures, it will be > clear that freemasonry doesn't have a racialism view and that useage > of terms like "white lodges" don't really reflect the true membership > of the lodges. I am looking forward to your correcting the commonly > accepted view of freemasonry as being "white male only". > If by "commonly accepted" you mean your own, I doubt it. I cannot educate you, you must educate yourself. All I can do is present you with the truth. You must decide if you will accept it or not. I have only heard YOU use the term "White Lodge", and it is you who says that Masonry is "white only". Anyone with open eyes, an open mind, and the curiosity to look for themselves can learn that there are Masons of every color, sect and opinion. > Perhaps others here on this ng will post the percentage of > "non-whites" in their local lodges. Perhaps, but facts have never stoped the lies before, why should more facts make a difference now? > > Oh, one more thing Eugene, in your masonic one world plan, or NWO as > some call it, I guess we can count on no female leaders and what > percent of non-white leaders? Calm down, just jokening with you > about that one. . I am calm, but as there is no "masonic one world plan", your question is impossible to answer. Why, after all this time, are you still incapable of accepting the truth? Do you get some kind of kick out of spreading the lies? Does it serve some deep, dark inner purpose for you to act the way you do? If you hate Masonry so much, why do you read these posts? -- Be well. Travel with a light heart. Gene Goldman P.·. M.·. Blackmer Lodge #442, San Diego, Ca. Black Mountian Masonic Lodge, U.·.D.·. Southern Ca. Research Lodge A.A.S.R., Valley of San Diego If you can read this, you have gone too far! l Date: 09-09-96 (15:42) Number: 210 of 212 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rdm@cbl.com.au, REDMAGE Subj: Re:Independence Day conspiracy Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.conspiracy.area5,alt.freemaso nry,alt.illuminati,alt.paranet.ufo,alt.alien.research Organization: Dawning Light Message-ID: <511hi4$qgu@klf.netconnect.com.au> Wih the recent outpouring of et/ufo related material through the mainstream media, one wonders whether it is just coincidental or whether there is some ulterior motive/s involved. The whole planet, it seems, has fallen hook line and sinker for a movie which can only make claim to brilliant (and very expensive) special effects. The storyline could have been grabbed from a review of 1950's alien attack films. However, this is all secondary to the real issue: the effect that the construct of reality ID4 puts forward has on the general populous. Practically everyone who has seen the film and who has not had an 'in' to conspiracy thinking now believes, or if the need arose, would believe that aliens are here to attack. This framework of thinking is exactly what the (real) producers of the film need as a lynchpin to a greater purpose. Now that general consensus is that aliens are here to attack, the way is laid wide open for a new world order. If in the next year or so, Clinton was to get up and announce that Planet Earth is under threat of annihalation, there would be global panic, and our friendly governments would announce (in the midst of chaos) that a new order, a one world government is needed for all humans to continue existing. In a state of fanatical fear the human race would grovel at the feet of anyone providing a solution to the seemingly hopeless situation which they now found themselves in. Independence Day has proved to be a powerful factor in conditioning and sensitising the population to accept the fact of an alien invasion, as have many other productions such as the Arrival, Mars Invasion etc etc. The timing of all these releases, along with the 'life on Mars' furore has worked very well in preparing the masses for a false alien invasion and the subsequent need for a nwo. If indeed this does happen, it will be the greatest lie ever to be perpetrated in the history of Planet Earth. During the 50's and 60's the alien attack theme was prevalent. Then during the 70's it shifted to friendly aliens who are spiritually harmonious and who want to solve all Earth's problems, as Close encounters illustrated. Now, with increasing global disintegration, corruption and disorder, and with the ruling elite desparate to hold on to the power and might of this civilization (some might even call it Babylon), the theme has reverted to the alien attack theme again, with et's who's only purpose is the remarkably base and i might add, human, motives of agression and destruction. It is hard to imagine et's with no regard for life. If aliens were to land and tell us that we are screwing up ourselves and our planet, the established order would disintegrate and there would be no power left to possess. So it seems as though the elite, in a mad yet calculated bid to retain this control have stooped to lying about the most monumental factor in our history and implement a new order which would in actual fact be control taken to the n'th degree. However we need not worry, as a bit of research will show that the Communist Dragon (aka 'democratic' Russia) has been waiting behind the scenes for the right moment to destroy the West and inplement their own 'order.' World domination was the original purpose of communism as outlined by Lenin who said that 'the communist ideology cannot exist in harmony with other, conflicting ideologies.' Some of his other quotes serve to illustrate the communist purpose: 'Lies are the most effective weapon in pursuit of our goals,' and by some other Russian leader, 'We will take one step backwards and two steps fowards, agressively pursuing our goals all the while.' (for more information on the communist deception see The Spirit of Truth page: http://www.ucc.uconn.edu/~jpu94001/index2.html). If ID4 is indeed one of many catalysts for the implementation of a nwo, then it has seved it's purpose very well. The time is just right for the elite to stage a fake alien invasion. Any input/constructive criticism to this posting would be welcomed. I am totally in favour of free discussion of any viewpoints on matters such as these. RedMage rdm@cbl.com.au Date: 09-09-96 (21:46) Number: 214 of 235 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: patlabbe@pdn.net, PATRICK C LABBE RN MSN Subj: Re: Masonic Politicians Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Melaleuca- Independent Market Executives Message-ID: <3234F288.2F16@pdn.net> Mart. wrote: > > What about Jesus of Nazareth, that carpenter fellow > and mean fisherman. Boy could he tell a good story > and a dinner party he could cater for 5000 with > nothing but a bit of bread and fish. > > Peace Profound, > > Mart. He was a rather great fellow wasn't he? And I suspect a person who would be/is (depending on your belief system) in total agreement with the goals of Freemasonry! -- Patrick C. Labbe 32^ MPS Blue Lodge #142 AFM, Dillon SC AASR Valley of Charleston, Orient of SC The Scottish Rite Research Society The Philalethes Society Grand College of Rites Date: 09-10-96 (17:39) Number: 220 of 235 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: gfheath@g.imap.itd.umich.edu, GERRY HEATH Subj: Re: New World Order/Masons/Lord Maitreya Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: University of Michigan Message-ID: <513uml$529@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> pedrotti@aol.com (Pedrotti) wrote: >In article <504crh$962@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>, >gfheath@g.imap.itd.umich.edu (Gerry Heath) writes: >>I am not an "anti", >>but like to think that I am an objective observer of current events >>and prophecy, both biblical and secular. I am knowledgable about >>both, but not obsessed. >Gerry, >I don't suppose you see anything oxymoronic in assembling the words >'objective' 'observer' and 'prophesy' into the same sentence. My concept Obviously not. Because I observe objectively those who prophesy doesn't mean I put any stock in their prophecies. >of the expression 'objective observer' would preclude a person so >described from giving even a moment's credence to prophesy, biblical or >secular (whatever the heck secular prophesy is). To the extent that Your concept, in my own humble opinion, is shortsighted. There is a great deal of prophesy, both biblical and secular that has come to pass. Some prophets that I refer to as secular are Michel de Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, etc. >someone properly considered "objective" would become "knowledgable" about >"prophesy", his interest would be on a par with hiring astrologers to try >to predict what Hitler's astrologers might be telling him. All "prophesy" >comes under the heading of "not available to humankind, now or ever", in >company with "changing the past". You obviously have strong feelings about what is available through prophecy and I do not choose to be contentious. Since you brought up Adolph Hitler, during WWII, Rudolph Steiner was hired by the Allies to do just that, predict what Hitler would do next. You can learn more about this in THE SPEAR OF DESTINY by Trevor Ravenscroft, if you care to. Again, I am not saying that I believe this, but many do, and I observe that they do. >And while you are at it, if you want to have any credibility for your >assertions about Freemasonry, you are really going to have to avoid citing >crackpots like Albert Pike. Even mentioning him completely undermines any >argument you may proffer. Never mind what even a few current Masons still >think of him, he was a florid nutter. "Morals and Dogma" is a prime >instance of what the geneticist really got stuck with when he tried to >cross a crocodile with an abalone to get an abadile, namely, a >crock-abalone. See Dr. Roger Firestone's response to your remarks about Albert Pike if you don't think that a Mason would put any stock in what Pike had to say. The good doctor come with some fairly impressive credentials in Freemasonry. I think that most people on alt.freemasonry would disagree with your evaluation of Pike's writings. BTW, I made no assertions about Freemasonry. I posted many remarks about Freemasonry made by others and was seeking opinions from Masons about them. >Regards, >Peter Pedrotti >Oakland, CA USA Gerard gfheath@umich.edu Date: 09-10-96 (11:35) Number: 245 of 269 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: journal@srmason-sj.org, JOURNAL Subj: RE: Albert Pike Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: GNN Message-ID: <513vtc$aju@news-e2b.gnn.com> >snip > >Anyone know why Albert Pike is the person buried closest to the >Whitehouse, and why this will never change? From "The House of the Temple" "Following his death in 1891, Sovereign Grand Commander Pike, who had served the Scottish Rite in that capacity for 32 years, was placed to rest in one of the cemeteries in the Nation's Capital. Years later, when the present House of the Temple was completed, it was deemed appropriate that the remains of this distinguished Freemason should be honored in the building which represented the culmination of his vision for Scottish Rite Freemasonry. In 1943, with the aid of Illustrious Arthur Capper, 33, senator from Kansas, a Special Act of Congress was passed. This Special Act granted permission for the placement of two crypts in the House of the Temple. In 1944, the Temple became the final resting place for Albert Pike, and in 1954, for one other dynamic Grand Commander, John Henry Cowles. The crypts of these two Grand Commanders are located beyond the walls on the first landing. In front of each crypt is a bronze bust, showing the likeness of the man and paying tribute to his contribution." The House of the Temple is on 16th and S Streets NW, Washington, DC. This is just blocks from the White House. I don't know if anyone else is buried closer. Jay Naughton journal@srmason-sj.org Date: 09-13-96 (22:00) Number: 309 of 322 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: mail@javanet.com (Reply-To: trusten@javanet.com), PAUL TRUSTEN Subj: how to improve degree work Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Javanet Message-ID: <323A1FAC.2223@javanet.com> Reply-To: trusten@javanet.com The following is a superb piece of advice from M.W. Calvin G. Bond, Grand Lecturer of the Grand Lodge of New York. Q. How can we make the Degrees more impressive to the candidates? A. By making the candidate realize that this is not a mere rote recitation, but that every question asked and every statement made has life and significance to it. The officers and other participants should put themselves in the candidate's place and strive to make everything meaningful to him. Attempt to make every participant take pride in what he is doing, and in how he is doing and saying it. An indifferent approach can kill the finest material in speech. Make the candidate feel the drama in all parts of the Degree. ****** More of M.W. Bro. Bond's remarks can be found at the following URL: http://www.vcomm.net/~amorgan/gl.html Date: 09-14-96 (02:53) Number: 316 of 322 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: francbooth@aol.com, FRANCBOOTH Subj: Masons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Message-ID: <51dkpd$dtd@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: francbooth@aol.com (FrancBooth) I work for a company that does TV work in hospitals. Every once and a while I spend the day trekking thru pateint rooms updating remote controls or cable boxes. This week I had the chore of replacing both in Huntington Memorial in Pasadena. I work with a young buck named David who has so many funky misconceptions of Masonry. It seems his wife is some sort of Bible thumping Anti Everything. He is curious about my involvement in Masonry but tells me if he ever became a Mason his wife would divorce him(whatever). Anyways we're going thru the rooms and he's asking me all sorts of questions about Masonry my wife(who is Catholic) and just stuff. As I'm trying to answer him as best I can it seems that every man or woman( We were in a Geriatric Unit) who was in each room was or is a Mason or Eastern Star member. I can't tell you how good it made me feel when a very old man who could barely talk spoke to me. As we were finishing his room His eyes lit up as he wished me success in my Masonic career. He spoke of his Father who was a 33rd degree member and how proud his father was to be a Mason. I don't know if he(the Pateint) was a Mason but I can tell you he was filled with pride and he was truly wishing me success. We went thru a few more rooms and I met another man who was not actively practicing Masonry anymore but was sure ready to set my co worker straight about his nieve accusations. All in all I am very proud to be a Mason even if it's still only my first degree. I still have 2 more to commit to my heart. Thanks to all Masons who have gone before me and who will come after me. I can see that Masonic enrollment is not what it used to be. I can only hope that I learn from those who have been there through out the years. As I have posted before. Many good men make up Masonry Many are still there to teach me I hope I am able to teach someone one day Date: 09-14-96 (21:48) Number: 317 of 322 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: thom_h@ix.netcom.com, THOM HANCE Subj: a very serious question Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: ComSys / Cutler-Williams Message-ID: <323B8A9C.12DE@ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: thom_h@ix.netcom.com As long as the man is not a Libertine (i.e. One who is unable to circumscribe his desires and and keep his passions within due bounds (and that can be read as un-willing as well as unable)) then by all means encourage him to seek further knowledge of the Fraternity. -- Thom Hance, Worshipful Master Collinwood Lodge #582 F&AM 20361 Arbor Ave. Euclid, OH 44123 Date: 09-15-96 (01:53) Number: 318 of 322 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: tmorgen@ix.netcom.com, T MORGENTHALER Subj: Re: The Test For Freemasonry Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian,alt.freemasonry,alt.masonic.members Organization: Netcom Message-ID: <51fnij$icr@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Dear Emmett, Thank you for writing: If you could share with me the area of the country and your lodge, I would appreciate knowing where you had such an experience that you describe. If this all happened a long time ago, you might find that some rather interesting and welcome changes have occurred since you left. > As I told you in my letter, the barriers of color are slowly but most certainly dissapating as time goes on. To answer your question below in the most direct, yes my lodge would most certainly take in a black member. A York Rite Lodge, my lodge has already done so. I also related the very postitive experience our own Edgewater Lodge had recently by raising it's first black member with the help of the PHA grand master at his raising in the Edgewater Lodge. The time has come that these barriers should be taken down. Masonry is moving in a positive way toward the future...as it should. Wherever the Lord takes you, brother, go with the assurance that the negative you experienced is not conclusive of the organization at large. Regards, and sincerely Ted Date: 09-15-96 (12:50) Number: 333 of 350 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: 100607.1177@compuserve.com, ADRIEN BLAISE Subj: Re: Women and Freemasons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: AP Message-ID: Reply-To: 100607.1177@compuserve.com Hi Rebecca, In article <511h9q$dma@ratty.wolfe.net> on 9 Sep 1996 16:40:26 GMT rebeccaw@wolfe.net (Rebecca Wells) wrote: << Be honest, with yourself and the Creator at least, that you are being selfish in your desire to uphold the exclusion of women from sharing as sisters in that which you find so valuable. Wouldn't the world be a better place if both men and women could work side by side to improve themselves in Masonry? >> They actually can. Besides feminine GL's and Lodges, "co-" GL's exist (Droit Humain or DH is the main one), and the recognition and "regularity" issue doesn't seem to prevent most of their members to "improve themselves" through Masonic teachings. The fact that "regular" GL's don't recognize the DH as so doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. This being said, and since feminine Lodges and "co-" GL's do exist, why FORCE male Masonry to accept women ? To Bro. John Hagen, I would say that in my opinion, the way to prevent women from "invading"** male only Lodges is by allowing and encouraging feminine and co-Masonry to develop (even if we consider them "irregular" otherwise). What would you say is most important to you, not having women in YOUR own Lodge and GL, or no women calling herself a Mason in the World ? Sincerely, -- Adrien Blaise (GLdF, Paris) Date: 09-15-96 (03:20) Number: 336 of 350 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: freemasonry and christianity Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <51fsmf$a1s@news2.cais.com> The supposed Muslim deity depicted as a boisterous and rowdy character in the play was given the name "Termagant." (In most modern usage, a termagant is a shrewish woman.) You could look it up. Another name given by the Christians to a supposed Muslim deity was Baphomet, which is a modification of the name Mahomet (Mohammed). This name later came to be used for a manifestation of the Devil, particularly as a goat. This name is now used by some anti-Masons in allegations that Masons worship such a non-existent character. The Patriarchal Cross characteristic of the 33rd degree is called a symbol of Baphomet by Jack Chick, who publishes crudely drawn (and more crudely plotted) "comics" of a slanderous nature against various denominations he opposes. Both of these are complete fictions, invented by overzealous clergy. The original (and still heard occasionally) name for the fez was "tarboosh." It was particularly popular in the Moroccan city of Fez and came to be called by that name. It may be found in many colors in parts of the Arab world where it is still worn. Interestingly enough, it was banned by Ataturk as part of his efforts to modernize Turkey. (Would that have happened if it had such great significance as a symbol of Muslim victory? The memory of Saladin, the Kurd who defeated the Christian Crusaders, is still venerated.) I believe that the fez worn by members of the Grotto (MOVPER) is black, not red. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 09-15-96 (09:13) Number: 342 of 350 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jwarcher@aol.com, JWARCHER Subj: Re: Women and Freemasons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Message-ID: <51gvdl$cbj@newsbf02.news.aol.com> In article <511h9q$dma@ratty.wolfe.net>, rebeccaw@wolfe.net (Rebecca Wells) writes: >Be honest, with yourself and the Creator at least, that you are being >selfish in your desire to uphold the exclusion of women from sharing as >sisters in that which you find so valuable. Wouldn't the world be a >better place if both men and women could work side by side to improve >themselves in Masonry? The short answer is NO. There is a feeling within the lodge room unlike any that I have ever experienced. At first I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but now I think I know what it is (at least to me). It's the knowledge that every man in the room truly is my brother. Not because they took an oath and vowed that they would be, but more because of shared perspectives on everything from current events to world history. Don't misunderstand me, we don't always agree on everything and on some occasions we can't agree on anything. Even so, the feeling is still there. I would like to think it's not as simple as the old line "birds of a feather, flock together" but I think it may be just that. Lodge brothers generally come from the same area, have similar economic backgrounds, know many of the same people and in many cases work at the same factories, offices, etc. I have an excellent example of what I mean. Twenty miles or so from my lodge was another lodge, Neptune #75. Neptune was located in an area known for it's fishing and oyster industries. The lodge itself was one block from the river at a point that was only a couple of miles from the Delaware bay on the Jersey side. As one would expect, the majority of the lodge members had occupations that involved the water. They were Marine Police, Oyster Men, fishing boat captains, pier builders, clamers, crabbers and so on. To them, a lodge meeting was an opportunity to meet one another as equals or on the level as we might say. To me, when I visited their lodge, it was as if I had stepped through a door and into the life of another family. They where certainly friendly enough and I was invited to share in whatever they had. Although, I could not share in that one thing that made them a lodge, no matter how much I wanted to. That was their common background, their shared perspectives. That is what bound them together to form a lodge and not just a group of people following rituals from a forgotten time. That is why I'm against women joining the lodge. I have nothing against women. I do not feel they are inferior in anyway. I just do not believe that men and women have the same perspectives. Diversity is a wonderful thing. It brings new ideas to the table and challenges old ones, but I honestly do not think it belongs in the lodge. Freemasonry has stood the test of time because (IMHO) it has not changed to accommodate the current fad or latest thinking. The organization as a whole is based on sound principles that, if those principles are kept alive, will keep it strong. I truly believe that if you force change upon Freemasonry, it will crumble like a castle made of sand. Byron White, 32nd AASR Shekinah Lodge #57 Millville, NJ Date: 09-14-96 (20:24) Number: 353 of 367 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: ruble@roanoke.infi.net, SCOTTY Subj: Re: Albert Pike Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Customer of InfiNet Message-ID: <51f49m$ssn@nw101.infi.net> Reply-To: ruble@roanoke.infi.net In article <511cs0$q44@news2.cais.com>, rfire@cais.cais.com says... > >In article <51074k$rgh@jaguar.wild.net>, wrote: >[snip] >>I know it is a sore spot with you but in fact, since masonry allows >>them to join, thus they must be considered as having good morals, so >>why would you object? By the way, you didn't answer, was he also a >>member of the KKK? > >Was _who_ also a member of the KKK? > >I don't believe that I know of any Lodge that would consider a member of >the KKK to be of "good moral character," but perhaps there are some >Lodges in small towns in the American South that might allow such >persons in. Why a member of the KKK, which expresses strong views >against all religions other than Christianity (sounds like your soul >brothers, joken), would want to join an organization like the >Freemasons, who profess religious toleration, is a yet-to-be-explained >part of your worldview... > >>By the way, what is this "white lodges" stuff I've been reading about >>on the ng? Doesn't that smack of the same odor as the KKK? > >There are no "white lodges" in Freemasonry. It is true that most Lodges >in George Washington Freemasonry are composed of a majority of whites of >northern European descent. Since Freemasonry began in England and was >propagated to the New World by Englishmen and was later adopted most >aggressively by Frenchmen and Germans, this is hardly surprising. But >no GL Constitution of which I am aware restricts membership by race. > >[snip] >>Since the kluckers in masonry are your brothers, why would you object >>to bringing them up as long it is in a favorable light? Oh, I get it, >>another one of those "secrets", eh? Now I understand why another >>Gent referred to freemasonry lodges as "White lodges". > >Let's bring up the members of your religious denomination who have been >caught in various moral transgressions and judge your sect by their >actions, shall we? Oh, I forgot; since they are "Christians" (quotes >used because most Christians don't appear to recognize your intolerance >as a practice of the religion they understand by that name), they are >"forgiven" anything they do, right? > >Since Masonry is a organization composed of human beings, not all of its >members are perfect. We seek to correct the errors of our Brothers; if >they are incorrigible, we expel them. If I learned that any member of >my Lodge were also in the KKK, I would give him a chance to explain >himself, to leave the organization, and if unable to discharge himself >satisfactorily, file charges. The KKK is incompatible with Freemasonry. >(BTW, do you recall that one of the most distinguished jurists to serve >on the Supreme Court of the US, Hugo Black, was at one time a member of >teh KKK?) > >>Allow me to ask you this, do you know of _any_ freemasonry lodge that >>has a majority of non-white members? What percentage of all >>freemasonry lodges in the USA are 95-100% white male only? >>What percentage of freemasons in the USA are "non-white"? > >We don't keep a racial census, because we are not a racially-oriented >organization. Most PHA Lodges are majority African American. I know of >two GW Lodges that are majority African American: Alpha #116 in New >Jersey, and Sojourner-Kilwinning #1798 in DC. > >>I am sure that when you post the above requested figures, it will be >>clear that freemasonry doesn't have a racialism view and that useage >>of terms like "white lodges" don't really reflect the true membership >>of the lodges. I am looking forward to your correcting the commonly >>accepted view of freemasonry as being "white male only". > >Since PHA Masonry is about 90% African American, I'd say that it is >clear that Freemasonry is not "whites only." Since many GW Grand Lodges >recognize the PHA Grand Lodge in their state, you'll have to find >another avenue of slander to pursue. > >[snip] >>Oh, one more thing Eugene, in your masonic one world plan, or NWO as >>some call it, I guess we can count on no female leaders and what >>percent of non-white leaders? Calm down, just jokening with you >>about that one. . > >Since there is no Masonic "One-world Plan," your question is pretty >silly. Not funny, just silly. Masons cannot agree on a single Grand >Lodge to run their own Craft in many countries. The idea of Masons >somehow being organized to take over and run the world is lunacy. And >there are quite a few female leaders in Masonry by the way--the Grand >Worthy Matron of the Grand Chapter of OES in each state, the Grand Royal >Matron of the Grand Court of the OA in each state, and many local Royal >and Worthy Matrons, not to mention about a dozen other organizations in >Masonry for women or for men and women together. > >Perhaps sometime you would like to learn a few facts, rather than make >them up. > >Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH I can define the MASONIC ONE WORLD PLAN very simply, we want to promote the principal of treating every man as your brother, and every woman as your sister. If this is bad; then, (obviously) Christianity (the only religion I am really familiar with) and many other religions are on very shakey ground. Why can't we discuss Masonic ideals here without these trouble-makers tring to talk about all of their precieved faults with the order. I wonder how many of them have been to the altar; or, indeed could qualify? Or, maybe, they couldn't qualify? Would they like to state whether they know what a "black ball" is? Date: 09-16-96 (22:32) Number: 359 of 367 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: ruble@roanoke.infi.net, SCOTTY Subj: Re: freemasonry and christianity Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Customer of InfiNet Message-ID: <51kkhi$omg@nw101.infi.net> Reply-To: ruble@roanoke.infi.net In article <323B1ABD.35D0@foto.infi.net>, mwood@foto.infi.net says... > >> .... The "Fez," worn by Shiners, has its roots in the assasination of >> Christians during battle, whereupon the attackers had "dipped" their >> hats into the blood of slain Christians. Do your homework..READ READ > READ! < > >Interesting information; however, historical fact versus fiction and >legend is a little different. > # 1. Assasination during battle is incompatable terminology. > # 2. The story of the "dipping of the headgear into the blood of > the Crusaders" was initiated not by the Muslims, but rather in > an old English Drama in which a Muslim Diety was illustrated > during the play as being termagant and boisterous. At the end > of a scene where a hard fought battle between the Crusaders and > Muslims had taken place, and the Muslims had carried the field, > the Muslim leader in addressing his troops, made a symbolic > gesture regarding the Crusaders blood, thereby urging them on > to victory in battles to follow. The actual occurrence of the > event was only in the mind of the playwright and depicted on > stage. > # 3. The "Fez" was not the "head gear" used by Muslim troops/soldiers > during the time of the Crusades. > # 4. In your wildest imagination can you envision the number of flys > that head gear dipped in blood would attract ??? No military > unit could sustain itself very long in the field under these > health conditions. (BTW, blood which dries after exposure to > air is either brown or black dependant upon the amount and > which part of the body it comes from). > >Mike >32* and Shriner Mike I am also 32* a Shriner and a Klown I can only believe that these people not only do not have any clue as to what Masonery is but they probably would not qualify for any Lodge that I know of. They only need to visit a Shriner's Hospital to know what we promote, as Shriners. After that, maybe they need to research the brotherhood of man; which is the only core belief that I have ever found in a Lodge. We swear at the altar that we believe in god; but, you are not required to believe in my GOD (JESUS CHRIST AND JEHOVAH) or vice-versa. But, wouldn't this be a great world if everyone treated the people they met as brothers. To many people posting in this group have there own agenda, which involves putting down the Brotherhood for their own reasons or gain. We are for brotherhood and doing good, I wonder what their aims are? Date: 09-16-96 (22:49) Number: 360 of 367 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: ruble@roanoke.infi.net, SCOTTY Subj: Re: Women and Freemasons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Customer of InfiNet Message-ID: <51klh6$omg@nw101.infi.net> Reply-To: ruble@roanoke.infi.net In article <511h9q$dma@ratty.wolfe.net>, rebeccaw@wolfe.net says... > >John Hagen (harpoon@msn.fullfeed.com) wrote: >: interesting, isn't it, that on the honorable road to equality we >: have lost our perspective. The quest for parity in opportunity, >: education, and politital and ecomomic access has been diluted and >: trivialized by the idea that we must be the same in all things and that >: it is somehow dangerous for men or women to choose to be exclusive in >: some of their personal activities and associations. There is an event >: which occurs in my home town call "Take Back The Night" during which >: women march and demonstrate in response to their unique vulnerability to >: sexual violence. There have also been a number of gay and lesbian rights >: demonstrations. I support these efforts. However, I don't feel that I, >: as a heterosexual male, have the right to intrude on these activities. >: They belong exclusively to those groups. The presence of interlopers, >: which is what I would be were I to insist that the principle of equality >: requires that I be allowed to be in attendance, would only be >: an unnecessary disruption. > >With regard to your example above, I don't believe that it helps to >illustrate your point. Many, many heterosexual people turn out to march >and support gay rights marches because they believe that by *actively* >(not just giving lip service) supporting civil rights for all people, >their own rights have a better chance of also being supported and upheld. >Very similar things happened with regard to the anti-slavery and suffraget >movements supporting each other because they realized that the forces of >oppression are to be fought on all fronts. If masons do not actively treat >women as equals, morally and spiritually, then they are cutting themselves >off from a powerful ally, both spiritually and socially. > >: Although, unfortunately most masons are only >: marginally aware of the nature of the fraternity, Freemasonry is a >: wellspring of male spiritual energy, and, as such, should be encouraged >: to flourish. > >Is that true? Would you also say that Christianity is a "wellspring of >male spiritual energy" because Christ was male? Though Hiram Abif was >male, the moral and spiritual *PRINCIPLES* illustrated and taught by >Freemasonry, are *UNIVERSAL* and apply to ALL HUMAN BEINGS. Not just >MANkind, but generic humanity, as the bible says when you take the trouble >to understand the Hebrew in which it was written, instead of just >accepting the English translations as they stand and have been passed down >as gospel. And yet, even churches of any creed do not exclude women! > >: We men, in contrast to women, have too few opportunities >: to experience this. Bottom line...it really isn't necessary for women >: to be Freemasons. Inevitably, however, women will be accepted >: eventually and, while what arises from that may be a very good >: and worthwhile organization, it will no longer be Freemasonry, and we >: will have lost something singularly valuable. > >Be honest, with yourself and the Creator at least, that you are being >selfish in your desire to uphold the exclusion of women from sharing as >sisters in that which you find so valuable. Wouldn't the world be a >better place if both men and women could work side by side to improve >themselves in Masonry? > >Rebecca Blake >(married to a Master Mason) > Join the Eastern Star, it is a great organization that fosters the couples of Masonary. Why can't men have their own organization? We would in no way put down a woman's right to have her own organization. Date: 09-16-96 (17:28) Number: 361 of 367 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rebeccaw@wolfe.net, REBECCA BLAKE Subj: Re: Women and Freemasons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C. Message-ID: <51k2oa$7l5@ratty.wolfe.net> Eugene Goldman.·. (hypnosis@pacbell.net) wrote: : Rebecca Wells wrote: : <...> : >Wouldn't the world be a : > better place if both men and women could work side by side to improve : > themselves in Masonry? : > : > Rebecca Blake : > (married to a Master Mason) : > : Rebecca, : There are places! There is a "branch" of Masonry called Le Droit Humaine : (DH) also called co-Masonry. In DH men and women work in Masonry exactly : as you describe. : Alas, DH is not recognised by mainstream Grand Lodges, but IT EXISTS. Yes, I am aware of Le Droit Humain and have had conversations with one of their members. I intend to apply for membership in the near future. My husband and I were originally hoping to be able to join Le Droit Humain together, however, when he was raised as a Master Mason, he tells me that there is something in his obligation which he believes would prevent him from becoming a member of Le Droit Humain. We both believe that "regular" Freemasonry ought to admit women, however, it would be a major step forward for them to at least officially recognize Le Droit Humain, which would allow visitation priviliges and hopefully dispell many fears, myths, and blatant misogyny which exists among many of the "regular" masonic bretheren we've met. We follow the development of the recognition of Prince Hall masonry with great interest, for in many ways it is a similar situation with regard to getting folks to examine their closely held prejudices. I believe that "regular" Freemasonry sends a very contradictory message to the world about it's principals by excluding half of the human race. My experiences with socializing with Masonic bretheren has given me the firm impression that excluding women from Freemasonry serves to attract and create a haven for men who's relations with women are disrespectful and sometimes downright abusive. Is that what Freemasonry wishs to propagate? I hope not. Perhaps it is time for a look into how Freemasonry fosters that kind of bigotry towards women. It's one thing to have ideals to make the world a better place, and quite another to put those ideals into practice. Perhaps it's time for Freemasonry to get it's own house in order. Blessings to all, Rebecca Blake (married to a M.M.) Date: 09-16-96 (23:10) Number: 362 of 367 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: ruble@roanoke.infi.net, SCOTTY Subj: Re: Independence Day conspiracy Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.alien.research,alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,alt.conspiracy .area5,alt.freemasonry,alt.illuminati,alt.paranet.ufo Organization: Customer of InfiNet Message-ID: <51kmp6$omg@nw101.infi.net> Reply-To: ruble@roanoke.infi.net In article , bfranks@mail.entrsft.com says... > >> I think you're mixing up Freud and Kippling. Freud said "Sometimes a >> cigar is just a cigar"; Kippling said "A woman is just a woman, but a >> good cigar is a smoke." >> >> > >Looking up from _Kim_, I asked her, "Do you like Kipling?" > >"I don't know," she blushed, "I've never kipled!" > >bob > What in the world does this have to do with Masonary? Not only this, but the last few responses I have read.' I'm not even sure the original article should be in this group. Date: 09-16-96 (23:16) Number: 363 of 367 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: ruble@roanoke.infi.net, SCOTTY Subj: Re: Masonic Politicians Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Customer of InfiNet Message-ID: <51kn4i$omg@nw101.infi.net> Reply-To: ruble@roanoke.infi.net In article <50ngsm$b0l@news2.cais.com>, rfire@cais.cais.com says... > >This may not be a tiled Lodge, but anything that might stir up ill will >and dissension among the Brethren, whether at labor or at refreshment, >ought to be discussed very cautiously, if at all. There are many groups >for the discussion of politics in Usenet; why use alt.freemasonry for >that purpose? Were the Republic clearly in danger from the obviously >maleficent acts of an elected official, then it would be likely that >Masons would unite to oppose this by whatever means possible, but even >then, it might not be done under color of Freemasonry. During the >Revolutionary War, many Masons were patriots for the new country, but >they did not engage in political activity in Lodge itself, rumors about >the Boston Tea Party (which have been thoroughly debunked--see the >writings of Allen Roberts) notwithstanding. > >If a future President John Doe were to begin rounding up [insert ethnic >group name here] and having them shot, I should expect Masons to oppose >this vigorously. But we are not at any such brink of disaster, >irrespective of what one may think of either candidate. > >Finally, I might point out that there was one president whose Masonic >membership is unquestionable, despite his character having been quite >cloudy, and that was Warren G. Hardking. Our record is not so perfect >as to allow us to engage in criticism _as_ Freemasons. > >Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH GOD bless, brother. I am glad to see a posting from a Brother in this group. My Masonary and my Christianity are importent to me. Unfortunately, we have too many individuals who are not members of the Craft who want to see their words on the screen, and choose this group to accomplish this. Fraternally yours Date: 09-16-96 (22:14) Number: 365 of 367 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jjbaker@panix.com, JONATHAN J BAKER Subj: Re: Albert Pike Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: NightRoads Associates Message-ID: <51l1ig$1om@panix2.panix.com> In <> rfire@cais.cais.com (Dr. Roger M. Firestone) writes: >In article <51074k$rgh@jaguar.wild.net>, wrote: >[snip] >I don't believe that I know of any Lodge that would consider a member of >the KKK to be of "good moral character," but perhaps there are some >Lodges in small towns in the American South that might allow such >satisfactorily, file charges. The KKK is incompatible with Freemasonry. >(BTW, do you recall that one of the most distinguished jurists to serve >on the Supreme Court of the US, Hugo Black, was at one time a member of >teh KKK?) Hmm. My wife's grandfather, of blessed memory, was a 32-degree Mason, member of the PBA, and other community organizations, in Birmingham Alabama in the 1930's and 1940's. He was also a semi-religious Jew, and furthermore, an adult immigrant from central Europe, who owned a small factory. Despite all this, he was asked to join the KKK. Naturally, he turned them down. Apparently, the KKK in that time and place was just another Sunday picnic organization, rather than the anti-immigrant and anti-black thing it is today. Either that, or my father-in-law is telling some whoppers (which I wouldn't put past him). >>Allow me to ask you this, do you know of _any_ freemasonry lodge that >>has a majority of non-white members? What percentage of all >>freemasonry lodges in the USA are 95-100% white male only? >>What percentage of freemasons in the USA are "non-white"? >We don't keep a racial census, because we are not a racially-oriented >organization. Most PHA Lodges are majority African American. I know of >two GW Lodges that are majority African American: Alpha #116 in New >Jersey, and Sojourner-Kilwinning #1798 in DC. Well, many Jews today consider themselves non-"white", despite skin color. Jews, particularly religious Jews, have long been barred from many "white" businesses. Yet there are many lodges that are mostly or entirely Jewish, particularly here in New York. Jonathan Baker not (yet?) a mason, but a lewis. Date: 09-20-96 (03:41) Number: 437 of 628 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Please Read This Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <51t3q1$ovn@news2.cais.com> For that matter, not everyone agrees that pornography is an offense against morality. Some religions (Islam, Judaism, LDS) permit polygyny; Christianity considers it an offense. Who is right? The Jewish Scriptures and interpretations define "adultery" quite differently from the way conservative Christians do. (Premarital intercourse is not a violation of Jewish law, so long as the woman does not later claim to be a virgin. Many Christian denominations differ with this viewpoint.) Not everything that is unwise is necessarily immoral. The only explicit reference in Masonry to sexual morality is to the virtue of chastity. The suggestion that speculative Masonry teaches one to subdue one's passions may have application as well. But neither of these relates to pornography, the possession of which does not violate the chastity of another (nor one's self, for that matter). Masonry also teaches us to be "peaceable citizens." That does not mean that Masons are prohibited from reading Das Kapital or even Mein Kampf; it did not even prevent Masons from supporting the war for independence of the US from Britain. So far as I know, the possession of pornographic materials would not be considered a Masonic offense in most jurisdictions of which I am aware. But there may be some where joken@wild.net would be satisfied; there are, after all, jurisdictions where involvement in the gaming or liquor industries is considered to be unMasonic, and others (e.g., Nevada), where Masonry functions quite well despite the nature of the local industry. Masonic morality has a lot more to do with how one treats one's fellow men than with arbitrary standards of prohibition. Masonic morality is more closely related to the Golden Rule than to joken's blue-nosed Puritanism. If a Mason asks himself, would I want to be on the receiving end of such behavior, before doing something, he will avoid most breaches of Masonic (and Christian and Jewish and Muslim and Sikh and Hindu) morality. Poor joken@wild.net! He has the misfortune to live in America, where people differ on the definition of morality but manage to get along anyway. How much happier he would be in some land such as North Korea, where morality and thought are uniform and enforced by the most stringent measures. (But perhaps he would only be happy if the knout were in his hands...) Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 09-20-96 (14:18) Number: 446 of 628 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Women and Freemasons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <51u94b$574@news2.cais.com> In article <51tfjm$v@jaguar.wild.net>, wrote: [snip] >I am not eager to join masonry, in fact I rejected their solicitation. >Just wanted to make that clear. I am against the lies in masonry. Since Masonry solicits no one to join, it pretty much undermines your claim to be "against the lies in masonry" when you begin your discourse with a falsehood. >My Dad was seduced into masonry by the claims that masonry was a >Christian org, which we know to be a lie. Masonry claims to have Masonry would _never_ claim to be a Christian organization. No such claim was _ever_ made to your father. A second lie. >virtues and truth. Masons here are pono promoters, simply visit >ROBERT MITCHELL BRANCH's home page, many are just simply liars. They You have never provided any evidence of any Masons here being "liars." You simply claim that they are. When you are confronted with a truth that you don't like, you simply deny it and call it a lie. That doesn't make it one. As I recall from my basic psychology courses, the people who profess to be most horrified by pornography are those who have not been able to deal with their own sexual urges and desires. They then project these unresolved anxieties onto others and engage in a process called "reaction formation." The obsession with pornography is made legitimate by their claim that they desire only to suppress it. Lengthy psychotherapy is usually necessary to treat these people; of course, they generally deny that they are mentally ill, claiming that they are only interested in morality. Sometimes the obsession will push them over the edge into frank psychosis, with symptoms such as megalomania and delusions, often about receiving messages from God or carrying out the will of God. Placing a link on one's Web page to an "adult content" site does not constitute promotion of pornography as you claim. The freedom-of-speech organizations (ACLU, EFF) have such links themselves. I have links to many places on my Web page; from some of them, you can find all sorts of literature, probably even _Mein Kampf_; does that make me a Nazi? Hardly. Your leap from the links (which is not the same as _content_) on the Web page of one Mason to characterizing _all_ Masons as pornographers is clearly dishonest. As I have pointed out before, the KKK makes it quite clear that they are a Christian organization; no Jews or Muslims need apply. By your reasoning, we can assume that all Christians, YOU included, are in sympathy with racism, cross burning, arsons of black churches, and the like. How do YOU like being called a "klucker," eh? Finally, I might point out that the United States of America is a country in which freedom of speech and of the press are given explicit protection by its fundamental law, the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights. If you are offended by some speech or writing, such as pornography, too bad; it is _offensive_ speech that most needs protection. Speech that offends no one is unlikely to be the subject of attempts to suppress it. Trying to take away the freedom of those with whom you disagree is unAmerican. Are YOU a Nazi, a Communist, a religious fanatic with a God complex? In a free country, you are _free_ to go elsewhere if you don't like what you see. If you don't like pornography, don't buy it, don't follow Web links to it, don't talk about it. But you don't have the right to suppress it. Period. >openly accuse people of lying when in fact I've used thier own posts >to prove that they are the liars. I am opposed to the claims of Actually, you have never proved any such thing. (Other than in your own delusional world.) >masonry as being a Godly groups when the truth is they allow KKK >members to join. I am opposed to any religion that rejects the >Christ as its God. Christians here are beginning to see that they, We already know you are an anti-semite. I guess you include everyone in your hatred. Remember that First Amendment that guarantees freedom of expression? It also guarantees freedom of religion. I think we can pretty much call you unAmerican from now on. If one is known by the enemies one makes, I think Masonry looks pretty good having you, an unAmerican delusional fanatic for an enemy. (Other enemies of Freemasonry have included the Czars, the Commmisars, the Nazis, the Fascists, and the Iranian Mullahs. Enjoy the company you keep; we will point and snicker from a distance.) >like my Dad, have been lied to. I support the freedom of speech so >that I can point out that masonry isn't what "they" say it is. Christians are seeing no such thing. Many of us who debate with you are recipients of email messages from non-Masons who tell us that from what they have learned about Masonry _and_ anti-Masons reading this newsgroup, they have decided to petition for the degrees. How much email have YOU received from Masons who have been persuaded by your drivel to demit from the Craft? I notice that you support freedom of speech for yourself, but not for others. A typical sign of a sick mind. >Until you decent masons quit whispering sweet nothings into the ears >of the bubbas, and start kicking these perverts and hate-mongers out >of masonry, then I will continue to be anti-masonic. If masonry lived >up to its claims, I would not be such. When are you going to eject "perverts and hate-mongers" from your churches, eh? Or are they there so that they might learn to do better with their lives? Masonry intends the same, except that I don't know of any "perverts" or "hate-mongers" in any Lodge I attend. I _do_ know of one brother in his 80s who grew up in the racist South of the 1920s and who isn't going to change his ways, but a hate-_monger_ is one who actively promotes his beliefs, and that Mason keeps his attitudes to himself. When Jesus went among the taverners and harlots, did he spend his time denouncing them and telling them they didn't belong in his religion? You must have a different Bible from most Christians if that is what you learned from your Sunday school classes. I don't believe that getting rid of the "perverts and hate-mongers" in Masonry would satisfy you. We already know from your many previous postings that you are a religious bigot--confirmed by your language quoted above--and that your original opposition to Masonry was its practice of religious toleration. Your comments about pornography and your feigned concern over the KKK (which has been a joke since the civil rights struggle of the 60s ended, anyway) are simply convenient items with which to slander the organization. You will always be an anti-Mason. You will always be an embarrassment to the human race. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 09-21-96 (02:54) Number: 471 of 628 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jwintermute@ids2.idsonline.com, JANET & JOHN WINTERMUTE Subj: Philalethes Soc. Highlights from D.C. Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <51vlr8$m78@news2.cais.com> On Thursday, Sept. 19, the Philalethes Society held an open meeting at a restaurant in Bethesda, Maryland (U.S.A.). I attended as the guest of John Slifko, the California Le Droit Humain mason who is working with me in preparation for my petition. This was a fascinating get-together, and I thought alt.freemasons might be interested in some of the things I learned. The factoids coming later are independent and in no particular order. The audience included roughly 60 people representing--get this--26 different Grand Lodges. Onsite were masons from Africa, France (lots of Frenchmen and -women), and a newly installed Master of from Russia, as well as Americans from mainstream masonry and Order of the Eastern Star, Le Droit Humain, the George Washington Masonic Union (a new co-freemasonic organization out of Colorado Springs), Prince Hall masonry, and the Grand Loge Feminine de France and Grand Loge Feminine de Belgium. Ken Gebbala (spelling very doubtful), of the Grand Lodge of Washington, DC, was master of ceremonies. Featured speakers included Philalethes powerhouse Mike Segall, of the Grand Loge de France, and his charming wife, Odette, who is deeply involved in the Grand Loge Feminine de France. John Mellius (spelling, again), the Scottish Rite artist and printmaker, donated a couple of his artist's proofs to the speakers as commemorative mementos of the evening. The Grand Master of Prince Hall Masonry for the state of Maryland also spoke about PH's statewide charity endeavors. I'm sorry I did not get his name; there was no printed program and I simply did not hear it. After each speech, the floor was opened to questions. 1. On the subject of "recognition" of one GL by another, I was surprised to learn that this "problem" is almost solely American. Segall said that in France, the members of the five GL's attend one another's meetings freely and routinely. Not all the GL's there get along, but no prohibitions limit the association of members across GL lines. From the audience, Harry Hendler (Grand Master of the GW Masonic Union) stated that he thought the requirement for recognition was a bad idea that ought to be scrapped. I tend to agree with him. I'm having trouble with the concept that a mason in good standing from one jurisdiction cannot sit in lodge with masons from another GL's jurisdiction unless the GL's both permit it. Who could be hurt by giving up the recognition requirement? Every mason could profit by learning what's up in other nearby lodges and perhaps even more by gaining exposure to lodges found while traveling far from home. 2. Mike Segall summarized the overall masonic situation in France by noting that the Craft is prospering there, with masonic membership doubling about every 10 years since the end of World War II. Of the 5 masculine Grand Lodges in France, the two biggest (his GL of France and the Grand Orient of France) have about 15,000 members apiece. The remaining three lodges account for another 15,000 members total. There are 600 masculine lodges in France. 3. Odette Segall said the 300 feminine lodges in France are doing a land-office business. An audience member asked her to clarify whether most of the inductees are "professional women, lawyers, teachers, and so forth." She stated that this is indeed the case and "we can be very choosy." Evidently French masonry enjoys a somewhat more intellectual orientation than mainstream Craft masonry in the United States, with significant emphasis placed on masonic research and esoteric studies of the classical underpinnings of the movement. The emphasis on scholarship seems to be more significant in this professional cast to the organization than, say, class snootiness. Odette pointed out that, while the male masons in France can intervisit across GL lines, the women of her obedience cannot visit in any of the men's lodges. I do not believe there are any U.S. lodges of the Grand Loge Feminine de France at this time, but this point was not explicitly stated during the meeting. 4. The degree structure and rituals worked in women's French masonry are exactly the same as those worked in men's French masonry. Women's masonry in France tends to concentrate on the first three degrees. Advancement to 4 through 33 is based on invitation only, and it takes a *long* time to get invited up the ladder. Odette herself spent 15 years between degrees 3 and 4. Movement between degrees 1, 2, and 3 also takes much longer than is typical in Craft masonry here: at least a year at each step is not uncommon, and sometimes longer. 5. The Grand Loge Feminine de Belgium was represented by three sisters, Americans from New York City and Santa Fe and a third lady from France originally but now living in the Maryland suburbs of D.C. GLFB is actively expanding its presence in the United States. There is a strong lodge in New York City, and one will be opening soon in Los Angeles. This obedience is extremely interested in starting a lodge in D.C. in the near future. 6. Where are the most women masons found? According to Mike Segall, they're in England: 60,000 female masons are members of five GL's there. The only one of them that I had heard of, based in London, permits the establishment of lodges in the United States but has very strict rules about remaining silent about what's going on inside the organization. No such colonization has yet taken place. 7. Our Russian visitor (again, name not clearly expressed) spoke briefly about his excitement at the development of the Craft in Russia today. The Grand Lodge of Russia has only four lodges: two in Moscow, one in St. Petersburg, and one in a provincial area whose name was not clearly stated. He himself is master of the latter lodge. He believes that Russia is going through "a crazy time now" and very very much needs the influence of Freemasonry. 8. Does Freemasonry descend from the builders of King Solomon's temple, or from operative stonemasons involved in cathedral-building in Europe, or did it kind of pop out of nowhere around 1717? This question came from the audience, and Mike Segall explained that he believes in the operative stonemason theory rather than the others. The King Solomon theory breaks down for him because there is such a huge time gap between the building of that edifice and the emergence of the masonic movement. The operative mason connection works for Mike because the time gap between the end of operative stonecutting in England and the start of speculative masonry is quite short (a decade or two). In fact, Mike pointed out that in France, operative masonry is very much alive. And stonemasons there share a number of legends with speculative masonry. Segall mentioned the Hiramic thread, the "Brother Jack" story, and one other whose details escape me now. The pop-out-of-nowhere theory just doesn't make any sense to Segall. He appears to believe that "nothing comes from nothing." 9. What is the greatest challenge to masonry today and in the future? Breaking down the jurisdictional barriers that have been keeping us apart from one another for far too long, according to Mike. Mike also encouraged the younger people in the room--who, he says, will very shortly be those stuffy old GL officers they are even now complaining about--to "remember when you're an old mason how you felt as a young mason." Segall also stressed that GL's serve the members lodges, not the other way around. He reminded the audience that GL folks are elected, and on fairly quick turnarounds, too. He believes that GL's are "absolutely necessary and useful" but inherently conservative and resistant to change. It is the responsibility of young masons to remain flexible and even radical (in the original sense of that word, which comes from the Latin for "root") as they age and come naturally into positions of power within the masonic superstructure. Presumably the GL's of a few decades hence will be themselves more open to growth and less resistant to change than the GL's of today. 10. The Internet has become an unexpectedly powerful tool for bringing masons together worldwide. Mike noted that this is his and Odette's second month-long tour of the United States on Philalethes Society business, and of the many masons in the room whom he knows, he said, "I met most of you on the Internet in the CompuServe Masonic Forum." Unfortunately, this particular cyber venue is open only to CompuServe subscribers. Several people have encouraged me to hurry on over to that ISP because the intellectual content of that Forum is intense. Segall has claimed in the past that there are 26,000 masons on that Forum. If you have an opportunity to catch up with the Segalls on the rest of their current tour at Philalethes Society meetings, I strongly encourage you to meet these intense, gifted people. From Washington, DC, they travel to Vancouver, Seattle, and San Francisco. Their last stop is the Philalethes national convention in Minneapolis, Minnesota, during the first week of October. --Janet Wintermute Adelphi, Maryland Date: 09-21-96 (16:53) Number: 476 of 628 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: heidrick@well.com, BILL HEIDRICK Subj: Re: Hermetic Brotherhood of Light Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Whole Earth Networks News Message-ID: <5216ie$e5m@filth.well.com> Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Subject: Re: Hermetic Brotherhood of Light References: <51pjbs$pr1$1@mhadf.production.compuserve.com> <3241D025.38A1@vnw.c om> 93, Robert Reeder writes: >The Hermetic Brotherhood of Light (or Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor, >also Fraternitas Lucis Hermeticae) was originally known as the Egyptian >Rite of Freemasonry (back in the 1700's, when Cagliostro was running >it). The relationship between the Herbetic Brotherhood of Light/Luxor branch and Cagliostro's "Egyptian Masonry" is tenuous to nonexistent. The HBL apparently originated in the latter half of the 19th century. >It is currently known as the Ordo Templi Orientis, or Order of >Oriental Templars, and is active throughout the world. OTO did originate as an offshoot of the HBL, but OTO in English is Order of the Eastern Temple. OTO does not comprise the entirety of the HBL -- there was an independent HBL in Oakland California as late as the 1970's. >Paschal Beverly >Randolph is the name perhaps most widely associated with the HBL; BPR's sexual mysticism is prior to but very important in the HBL. The Hindu Tantric practices were introduced much later. >The most notable (or notorious!) Grand Master >of the O.T.O. was Sir Aleister Crowley, under whose leadership the Order >adopted the Law of Thelema, which you quoted. True, 1923 to 1947 as OHO of OTO. >http://otohq.org/oto/ That's correct as the URL of the US Grand Lodge supported site, however it is relatively new and the links to other OTO sites with more material are not complete. Best to search with the string "OTO" if you want more hits and information -- at least 25 should show up. 93 93/93 Bill Heidrick Treasurer General Ordo Templi Orientis (international) l Date: 09-22-96 (12:39) Number: 493 of 628 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Last Minute Master OR Here I go again! Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <523c17$qt2@news2.cais.com> Well, you planned a term before that worked out, right? Use that as a pattern for the coming year. You can still have a Wardens' Night (or Advance Night), a Past Masters' Night, and the like. (Make the new SW and JW plan Wardens' Night.) There must be some good Masonic speakers around whom you haven't used--and the ones you did probably have more than one talk. Contact the MSA in Silver Spring, MD for their list of videotapes and plan to show one or two. Try a Table Lodge--it will be a change from the ordinary and won't require a speaker, necessarily. Or hold a Festive Board after Lodge and invite guests/family who aren't Masons. The traditional toasts aren't secret. Hold a picnic/bbq before Lodge in the spring, instead of refreshments afterwards. Get the youth groups involved--have each of them present one of their lectures, like the Rose Talk. Here in Virginia, a Lodge which meets only once a month hardly has to plan any programs, there are so many mandatory events: Official visit of the DDGM, the DIW, and the DEO; Masonic Home Ambassador visit; Grand Lodge rsolutions; elections. That's half the year right there. Hold York Rite Night (invite the heads of various YR bodies to come and tell the Brethren about their variety of Freemasonry) and then have equal time for the Scottish Rite. Have the local Potentate talk about what goes on in the Shriners--not just children's hospitals, but the various units, of which some Oases may have two dozen or more, not only the funny cars and band, but the Hillbillies, the amateur radio group, the aviation Nobles, and so on. Organize some extra-Lodge activities. Is there an Independence Day (or other national holiday) parade? Get a dispensation from the GM to form a public procession and march in regalia. March with the OES and youth groups, in fact! Is there a Christmas-in-July program locally? Get involved with it, or start one. Be sure to wear Masonic t-shirts, polo shirts, sweat shirts, ball caps, etc. Does your Lodge have a banner? Get one made, if not, and march with it, or post it where it can be seen when you are engaged in some external activity. I myself had a sudden recycling experience as Master of Adoniram-Zabud Council #2. My biggest problem was simple lack of attendance at meetings. But we got through a relatively unplanned year with some Masonic education, even though I had to do it myself. Good luck! Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Master, Dawson Lodge #16, FAAM of DC Date: 09-24-96 (04:03) Number: 527 of 628 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Women and Freemasons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <527mj2$cka@news2.cais.com> Unfortunately, my sewer seems to have become connected with this newsgroup, producing a posting in which the noted anti-Semite, mr. joken, refers to Yom Kippur about eighteen times. While I am waiting for the plumber, I'd just like to share one of his items: >It wasn't my religion that killed an Innocent and willing accepted His >blood on their hands. Your attitute proves that you are no different. >Your hate for Christians has driven you insane, IMO. First of all, Jesus was put to death by the Romans, who had a general intolerance for any religion but their own. Jesus was executed on a cross made of wood. That manner of execution, along with many other cruel forms of torture unto death (such as flaying alive), was strictly Roman in origin. Jewish executions, which were _extremely_ uncommon, were done by stoning or beheading with the sword. Most Christian denominations have long since abandoned the claim that the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus. This is an allegation now held only by a few disreputable groups noted for their fanaticism in general, along with their anti-semitism, which they justify by this false bit of history. During the Crusades, entire Jewish settlements in the Rhineland were massacred by Christian knights on their way to the Holy Land to kill Muslims. Those villages contained not only adult men, but also women and children. Please don't make any claims about Christians not killing innocent people. There is no ethnic group in the world that does not have the blood of innocents on its hands. The assertion that I "hate...Christians" is also a libel. I do no such thing. This is a product of mr. joken's evil imaginings. He is so consumed by hatred that he cannot conceive of anyone not being similarly motivated. I'm sure that my friends of the Christian faith who have asked me to address their Sunday School classes for children and adults would be astonished at the merest suggestion that I "hate...Christians." I do, however, execrate those people who call themselves "Christians" but bring only disgrace and dishonor on their religion by their actions which show that they have no concept of what it means to be Christian. I wonder what the vast majority of the readers of this newsgroup, who are almost certainly 95% Christian, must think of the way mr. joken represents Christianity. Finally, I hope that when mr. joken brings his Masonic charges against me (as if), he is sure to include his repetitive ravings about what I have to atone for on Yom Kippur. I'm sure that those will be exceptionally persuasive to the trial commission about what kind of complaint is being brought and for what reason. As for the rest of his insulting, snide, and dishonorable remarks, I can only say . Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 09-24-96 (12:25) Number: 529 of 628 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rogeri@netcom.com, ROGER INGERSOLL Subj: Re: A question and a comment Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Message-ID: Organization: Freemasonry on the Internet Wes and Linda Grady (limagolfair@taconic.net) wrote: : The question: How do I learn about freemasonry, at least to a point : where I have a nodding acquaintance with the subject and be in a : position to discuss it with local members? : The comment, or really just a second question in disquise: Why are you : people, who are bound together by a fraternal bond of your own choosing : argue and bicker so much? To answer your first question, I invite you to visit my WEB page, Freemasonry on the Internet". There are quite a few aticles and even more links to other Masonic pages for your edification. If you have any specific questions, please post them and we will try to answer them. Your second question distresses me a bit. This newsgroup was created for people such as yourself to come and ask questions and for us as Masons to discuss various topics. However, it has been filled recently with post by a few anti-Mason's posting negative comments. Several bretheren have attempted to show these anti-Masons the truth, but that is not what they are interested in and the discussions have deteriorated to a point that is an embarrasment to have a visitor see. This is not what Freemasonry is. I hope this serves as a reminder to the Masons present that sometimes it is better to turn a deaf ear to the ignorant once it is determined that they are not interested in truth. I have replied to joken in the past but seeing his motives are not friendly, I have read some of his post with a grain of salt and ignored others. I find no truth or wisdom in his post and they simply are not worthy of a response. However, a visitor comes by and sees his post and may consider them as fact. How do we handle this? I suppose simply to remind everyone that this is not a closed group and occasionally a nut case will wander in. If he post garbage, we should post the truth. In the past, it has been easy for the visitors too see the truth thru the smoke. Roger Ingersoll l Date: 09-24-96 (20:20) Number: 551 of 628 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: livmalib@nyc.pipeline.com, LIVINGSTON MASONIC LIBRAR Subj: 9/24/96 New Acquisitions Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: The Pipeline Message-ID: <529fra$6ue@news1.t1.usa.pipeline.com> The Livingston Masonic Library has recently added the following volumes to our collections. Some of these titles may have been added to our research collections and thus will not circulate. The Library's reading rooms, located at 71 W 23rd Street in New York, New York, are open to the public Monday through Friday from 9am to 4:30 pm. Austin, James McMurray, (1813-1881). _Address delivered before the M. E. General Grand Royal Arch Chapter of the United States, at its triennial convocation, Baltimore, Sept 19th, A.I., 2401, A.D. 1871._ S.I.: s.n., 1871. Blakeney, W. E. _An oration on the principles of Free Masonry/ by W. E. Blakeney delivered at Hope Chapel, City of New York, on Wednesday evening, Jan. 6, 1858._ New York: Macoy, 1858. Borland, Peter M. ( - 1888). Robert D. Holmes, late P. G. M.: an address delivered before Altair Lodge, No. 601, F. & A.M. on Friday evening, April 15, 1870/ by P.M. Borland._ New York: Baker & Godwin, 1870. Briggs, Lews L. _The origin and purpose of masonry: an address delivered in Fox's Grove, Mohawk, N.Y. before the Masonic fraternity, June 24th, 1863, on the occasion of the celebration of the festival of St. John the Baptist._ Mohawk, N.Y.: [s.n.], 1863 (Utica, N.Y.: Childs & Williams' Print) Brown, W. R. _Address delivered at the dedication of Evening Star Lodge, No. 75, F. & A.M._ Troy, N.Y.: A. W. Scribner, Card and Job Printer, 1866. Chandler, Joseph Ripley (1792-188). _Faith, charity, obedience -- Masonic virtues: an address delivered on the inauguration and dedication of Washington Centennial Lodge, No. 14, in the City of Washington, Jan. 13, A.L. 5853, in the presence of the R.W. Grand Master, by Jos. R. Chandler._ Washington: Printed by Lemuel Towers, 1853. Coles, Oscar. _Address of the M.W. Oscar Coles, delivered at the annual communication, June, 5852. Also his address to the M.W. John D. Willard, on the presentation of a testimonial from the Grand Lodge, and the response. Also a similar address, on a like presentation to Wm. H. Milnor, and his reply._ New York: James Narine, printer, 1852. Cone, Orello (1835-1905). _The origin and spirit of Masonry: ad address/ by O. Cone in dedication of the Hall of Little Falls Lodge, No. 181, F. & A.M., March 23, 1864, together with minutes of the dedicatorial exercises._ Little Falls, N.Y.: J. R. Stebbins, printer, 1864. Crocker, Thomas R. _An address to the companions of Brooklyn Chapter, No. 148, of Royal Arch Masons, State of New York, together with the installation services; also, the closing address of the high priest, the officers generally, and the companions at large. Dec. 22d, A.Ino. 2386 A.L. 5856/ by most excellent companion, Thomas R. Crocker._ New York: Wynkoop & Hallenbeck, Book and Job Printers, 1857. Dunlap, Robert Pinckney (1794-1859). _Address delivered before the General Grand Chpter of the United States, at the triennial meeing in the City of Hartford, Connecticut, Sept. 9, 1856._ [S.I.: s.n.], 1856 (Portland: Ira Berry, Printer). Evans, Joseph Davis (1807-1888). _Address of the M.W. Joseph D. Evans . . . on the occasion of presentation of certificate of honorary membership, by City Lodge, No. 408._ New York: G.W. & S. Tunney, Printers, 1856. Ewer, Ferdinand Cartwright (1826-1883). _The Stability of Freemasonry: an address delivered on the occasion of the installation of the officers of Metropolitan Lodge, No. 273 F. & A.M., New York City . . . December 28, 1865, by Rev. F. C. Ewer, Grand Chaplain of the Grand Lodge of the State of New York._ New York: H. Croker, Jr., printer, 1866. Ewer, Ferdinand Cartwright (1826-1883). _The Stability of Freemasonry: an address delivered on the occasion of the installation of the officers of Sagamore Lodge No. 371 F. & A.M., New York City, on Wednesday evening, Dec. 20, 1865._ New York: H. Croker, Printer, 1866. Hall, Charles Henry (1820-1895). _Hiram Abif: a lecture delivered before Commonwealth Lodge, No. 409, F. & A.M./ by C.H. Hall, July 5, 1870._ Brooklyn, NY: Cromwell, Printer, 1870. Holland Lodge, No. 8. _Address to our brethren [New York, August 13, 1855, by a Committee of ten appointed to set forth the reasons which have induced Holland Lodge, No. 8 to declare herself free and independent]._ New York: Wynkoop, Book and Job Printer, 1855. Mackey, Albert Gallatin (1807-1881). _Washington as a Freemason: an address, delivered before subordinate lodges of Ancient Freemasons of South-Carolina, at Charleston, S.C., on Thursday, Nov. 4th, 1852, being the centennial celebration of the initiation of George Washington/ by Albert G. Mackey._ Charleston: Printed by A.E. Miller, 1852. Marvin, Walter Taylor (1828-1889). _An Address to the Sir Knights of Morton Commandery, No. 4, New York, March 17th, 1863._ New York: Baker & Godwin, Printers, 1863. Porter, Elbert Stothoff (1819?-1888). _Address . . at the dedication of the Masonic Temple, Brooklyn._ New York: Baker & Godwin, Printers, 1867. Rouhaud, H. _Travail et charite: discours prononce au banquet de la R Loge La Sincerite No. 373/ par H. Rouhaud, le 27 Decembere 1869._ New York: Koppel Freres, 1870. Sheppard, John Hannibal (1789-1873). _A plea for Freemasonry: an address delivered at Burlington, Vermont, on the festival of St. John the Baptist, June, A.L. 5850, before Washington Lodge, and visiting Fraternities._ Burlington: Printed by Chauncey Goodrich, 1850. Simons, John W. (1821-1888) _Historical Address delivered before Morton Encampment, No. 4, on the occasion of its 32nd anniversary, Aug. 18th 1855._ New York: Macoy, 1855. Starks, D. _An address delivered in Masonic Hall, Troy, N.Y., before Mount Zion Lodge, No. 311, of Free and Accepted Masons._ Troy, N.Y.: D.H. Jones, Book & Job Printer, 1861. Stone, Seymour H. _Address . . . in the Grand Chapter of the State of New York, February 2, 1869._ [S.I.: s.n.], 1869. Town, Salem, (1779-18640. _Address before the Grand Chapter of the State of New York, Feb. 5857._ Albany: Van Benthuysen, Printer, 1857. Tyng, Stephen Higginson (1800-1885). _Washington, an exemplification of the principles of Free Masonry: an oration delivered in the Metropolitan Hall, in the City of New York, Nov. 4, A.L. 5852, at the centennial commemoration of the initiation of George Washington into the order of Free and Accepted Masons./ by Stephen H. Tyng, together with an account of the proceedings._ New York: Macoy, 1852, Walworth, Reuben Hyde (1788-1867). _Opinion of Chancellor Walworth, upon the questions connected with the late Masonic difficulties in the State of New York: together with the action of the Grand Lodges of Massachusetts, Kentucky, South Carolina, District of Columbia, Rhode Island, and Ilinois upon the same subject._ New York: Narine, Printer, 1849. Wells, Cornelius L. _The rough and perfect ashlar: an address delivered before Kings County Lodge, No. 511, F. & A.M. Flatbush, L.I., at the fifth anniversary of the Institution of the Ldoge, March 29th, A.L. 5866._ New York: Printed by Edward O. Jenkins, 1866. Woodruff, William T. ( -1886) _Address delivered . . . at Cypress Hills Cemetery, Sunday, Sept. 17th, 1871, on the occasion of the consecration of the burial plot and the unveiling of the monument of Manhattan Lodge, No. 62, Free and Accepted Masons, of the State of New York._ New York: John Medole, Book and Job Printer, 1871. The Livingston Masonic Library is a state-chartered non-profit center for the collection, study, and preservation of the Masonic heritage. The Library is open to the public every business day from 9am to 4:30 pm and is located in Masonic Hall on 23rd Street in New York City. For more information, or to make a donation to support our mission, write to: Livingston Masonic Library, 71 W 23rd Street, New York, New York 10010-4171. -- William D. Moore Director Livingston Masonic Library livmalib@pipeline.com "Collecting, studying, and preserving the Masonic heritage." Visit our web page at: http://www.rpi.edu:80/~nichot3/masonry/library/index.html Date: 10-05-96 (17:37) Number: 648 of 680 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: mwood@foto.infi.net, MICHAEL B WOOD Subj: Re: Danny & Joken must be having fits Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: InfiNet Message-ID: <3256FF30.22E8@foto.infi.net> Jeff, That is really a thought provoking question. Just limiting the question of allegiance to only one element or segment of our society, for example the police officers in this country who are required to swear or affirm by an oath, staggers the imagination. You made a VERY good point !! Bro. Mike Date: 10-06-96 (18:23) Number: 649 of 680 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: sgtp8506@imcbbs.imcnet.net, EDWARD PUNT Subj: Re: AF&AM vs F&AM Lodges... Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: a Digital Internet AlphaServer Site Message-ID: <538tf7$v5@ns1.imcnet.net> socrates@hunter1.com (socrates) wrote: >In article <01bba85b$7aabf280$c388f3ce@dombotto> "Domenick R. Botto" writes: >>From: "Domenick R. Botto" >>Subject: AF&AM vs F&AM Lodges... >>Date: 22 Sep 1996 07:57:10 GMT > >>Could someone explain why some Lodges use F&AM while others use AF&AM? >I am not myself a Mason but my understanding is as follows; > >AF & AM (ancient free and accepted masons) is the predominant body of masons >in the US. They do not recognize F&AM lodges because these are the so called >Prince Hall lodges, which where founded by Mr. Hall (a black man who was made >a mason by George Washington). The dispute surrounds whether or not there was >a viable charter to conduct lodge at the location wherein Mr. Hall was made a >mason. Some say that this is merely a thin veneer covering racism. You couldn't be more wrong on this subject. While every Prince Hall Lodge that I've ever known was desginated as F&AM not all *Regular* or *George Washington* Lodge is designated as AF&AM. For instance, in New York there is no AF&AM Lodge. All Lodges, both Regular and Prince Hall, are designated as F&AM. I was raised in an AF&AM Lodge in Oklahoma but my Grandfather, who is a member of an F&AM Lodge in New York was the man who raised me in Oklahoma. There is mutual recognition between all AF&AM Lodges and F&AM Lodges that are considered *Regular.* However, not all *Regular* Lodges recognize Prince Hall Lodges. I use the term *Regular* for lack of another word to describe Lodges that are, ah, well, *Regular.* I don't like to use the term *George Washington* Lodges because *The Lodge at Fredericksburg in which Goerge Washington was initiated, had no warrant or charter until log after the First President was made a Mason.* That information was provided in the December 1935 issue of the Short Talk Bulletin, MSA. Edward Punt Lawton Lodge #183 Lawton, OK Residing at Fort Drum, NY *The Ways Of Virtue Are Beautiful* http://freedomstarr.com/?PU4447491 http://www.webville.com/oak/10mtn (still working on this one but check it out anyway.) Date: 10-08-96 (17:29) Number: 672 of 680 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: eclipsel@jjmoon.co.uk, ESAU Subj: Re: Letter "G" Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: dial_of_Ahaz Message-ID: <325A814F.167EB0E7@jjmoon.co.uk> Gruppo Internationalle wrote: > > RODRIGO A. wrote: > > > > Brethren... > > > > I must do an essay of the masonic meaning of the letter "G". > > Please could you send me some explanation (if you have..) > > > > Thanks a lot.. > > > > Rodrigo A. > > Fenix Lodge #69 > > The letter "G" is a figurative representation of the art of Geometry > which is fundamental for the construction of any structure. The G.A.O.U > utilised this art in the conception and creation of all that exists and > Pithagoras denoted Geometry as the science that explains everything in > clear perspective. The letter G is the seventh letter of the Latin alphabet. The number seven is very significant in the Old Testament scriptures. For example, "Beer Sheba" is translated as "seven wells" or "the well of the oath". The G hints at the impor tance of gematria in interpreting the Hebrew scriptures (Old and New! Testaments, als o the Greek). Gematria reveals hidden meanings in scripture ...... l Date: 10-08-96 (19:21) Number: 680 of 680 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jackj@mail.bright.net, JACK JOYNER Subj: Re: Masonry of 100 years ago Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: BrightNet Ohio Message-ID: <325AE20C.1663@mail.bright.net> Reply-To: jackj@mail.bright.net Edwin Davidson wrote: > > Would anyone have interesting trivia of how Masonry was, say, 100 years > ago ? The format of the evening, how did Masons get to lodge, how were > the lodges lighted, variations on the degree work, how far apart were > lodges out in the countryside (as they did not have cars), the type of > dress worn, etc. > > I do love history very much and am interested in the way and means of > Masonry of 100 years ago or so. > > Thank you. > > -- Brother Edwin, I have only been a Mason for a little over 25 yrs so I have no direct knowledge of transportation in 1896. I have heard stories told, after lodge, about visitations to other distant lodges. About trips to Grand Lodge. One older member who is a past master of another lodge told of his trip to Grand Lodge in 1910, or there abouts, from his home lodge when he was JW. It seems that one of the members had a car and they made the trip in his car. They had allowed 5 days to make a trip of about 100 miles. Between breakdowns, finding gas and flat tires, it took them 3 days up and 4 days back. He said that when they found a gravel road, they would really fly (about 15 mph). They would camp beside the road in a tent and cook most of their evening meals over a camp fire. I seem to remember that one evening they stopped in a town and asked the town marshal if they could camp in the town park. He said the marshal seemed supprised and said it was OK after they explaned where they were going. As they were pitching camp, a man on a horse rode up and told them to strike camp and follow him. It turns out this man was a Mason. He took them to his home, fed them and allowed them to sleep in his parlor. This brother who related the story was about 90 at the time he told it. I was young and didn't pay very close attention to him. I wish now that I had because I'm sure there was much more to his trip, but I cann't remember any more. I do remember he said that he went to Grand Lodge the following year as Master of his lodge. That year he and his JW traveled about 15 or 20 miles to the railroad and they went by train. Jack Joyner PM Fulton #248 Date: 10-08-96 (13:03) Number: 682 of 697 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: anthony@selenapc.demon.co.uk, ANTHONY HINDS Subj: Re: Masonry and Religion Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry,alt.members.masonry.alt.illuminati Organization: holistic approaches Message-ID: In article <324E107C.1613@pdn.net>, "Patrick C. Labbe RN MSN MPS 32*" writes >Masonry and Religion >by >Patrick C. Labbe MPS 32^ > >To those who would contend that Freemasonry is not religous >in nature, I summit to you the words of that eminent and >prolific Masonic author and Grand Secretary of South >Carolina for many years: Albert G. Mackey. > > "As Masons, we are taught never to commence any great >or important undertaking without first invoking the name of >Diety, and this is because Masonry is a religous >institution, and we thereby show our dependence on and our >trust in God." (Albert G. Mackey, AHIMAN REZON WITH >CONSTITUTION AND CODE OF SOUTH CAROLINA, p. 83) > > > I think the tenants of Masonry are religous. Prayer and a >belief in a supreme being is an essential part of Masonry. >i agree that Masonry is not a religion but it is a >non-sectarian faternity of religous people. Remember while >Hindus, Moslems, Jews, Christians, Sihks and Bhuddists may >belong, atheists and agnostics cannot. this in my opinion >and the opinion of such masonic luminaries as Pike and >Mackey makes Masonry a religous organization. > > > "Though Masonry neither upsurps the place of, nor apes >religion, prayer is an essential part of our ceremonies." >(Albert Pike, MORALS AND DOGMA p.6) > > "Every Masonic Lodge is a Temple of religion; and its >teaching are instructio in religion." > (Albert Pike, MORALS AND DOGMA p.213) > > "Masonry is, in every sense of the word an eminently >religious institution-that is indebted solely to the >religious element which it contains for its continued >existence, and that without this religous element it >would scarcely worthy of cultivation by the wise and the >good." > ( Albert G. Mackey, ENCYCLOPEDIA OF FREEMASONRY p. 727) > >How more religious can you get? Yes there is a difference >between spiritual and religious....and Freemasonry >is RELIGIOUS. Anything can be a spiritual >experience even an atheist can have an inward >spiritual experience. But it talkes a believer in >God to have a RELIGIOUS ecperence. Masonry is such >an experience, based in our belief in God and >firmly placed in our use of prayer. > >Finally in the Standard Work of the Scottish Rite, Bridge to Light, >the book that is given to each 32^ Mason to further study, the rites, >beliefs, and rituals of Scottish Rite Masonry it is said: > >"Each culture has formed its conception of God into a particular myth and >practice best suited to the experiences of the people and the limits of >their conceptions. masonry seeks to teach no doctrine of faith except >that universal doctrine of the brotherhood of man and the onesness of >God. Therefore, even though it is not a religion, it is worship. Those >who take offense at this are themselves laboring under the limits of >their misconceptions. Thus Brother Pike has wisely counseled us to be >tolerant even of intolerance." >( Rex R. Hutchens 33^ BRIDGE TO LIGHT p.12) > > Patrick C. Labbe 32^ MPS >Blue Lodge #142 AFM, Dillon SC >Marion Chapter #35, RAM, Marion SC >Myrtle Lodge #3, K of P, Columbia, SC >AASR Valley of Charleston, Orient of SC >The Scottish Rite Research Society >The Pee Dee Scottish Rite Club >The Philalethes Society >Grand College of Rites atheists and agnostics can join. the supreme being does not have to be a theistic conception! -- anthony hinds Date: 10-09-96 (14:28) Number: 687 of 697 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Letter "G" Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <53gcpo$m4v@news2.cais.com> In article <325A814F.167EB0E7@jjmoon.co.uk>, Esau wrote: >Gruppo Internationalle wrote: [snip] >> The letter "G" is a figurative representation of the art of Geometry >> which is fundamental for the construction of any structure. The G.A.O.U >> utilised this art in the conception and creation of all that exists and >> Pithagoras denoted Geometry as the science that explains everything in >> clear perspective. > >The letter G is the seventh letter of the Latin alphabet. The number seven is >very significant in the Old Testament scriptures. For example, "Beer Sheba" is >translated as "seven wells" or "the well of the oath". The G hints at the impo rtance >of gematria in interpreting the Hebrew scriptures (Old and New! Testaments, al so the >Greek). Gematria reveals hidden meanings in scripture ...... Except that "gimel" is the _third_ letter of the Hebrew alphabet, not the seventh. And the "G" in Freemasonry is only an accident of English; the letter is given properly in the Scottish Rite as "yodh," which is not the seventh letter of the Hebrew alphabet. The letter G in English is sometimes pronounced as a /j/ sound, which has led to certain concealed meanings in Masonry, because G was substituted by J in certain places (and the letter J is how German writers, who were responsible for translating many Biblical names--such as Joshua, Jeremiah, Jonah--from the Hebrew rendered the letter "yodh"). Of course, the Greek letter gamma, which used to represent a /g/ sound, _looks_ like a 'y,' and is sometimes pronounced like one, while in the Nordic languages the 'g' is pronounced like a /y/ before certain vowels. While all this leads to some hidden lessons in Masonry, it is not strictly gematria (it is linguistics and philology, really, in which accidental changes between similar letters have created differences or obscured information not necessarily supposed to be hidden), which adds up the numeric values of letters in Hebrew and finds correspondences between words that have the same numeric sum. (Or something similar--as when, a few years ago, the letters used in the Hebrew version of the year date [Hebrew doesn't have separate numbers; it uses letters to represent digits, somewhat like the Romans did, although not exactly] spelled the word "tashmad," which means "destruction." That made doing _anything_ that year unfavorable.) The most famous use of gematria in the Christian Scriptures is the "number of the beast" (666). No one knows for sure whose name was supposed to add up to 666, but many superstitious Christians have been known to refuse car license plates with that number, telephone number assignments including 666, and so on. My personal opinion of gematria is that it tends to grasp for things that aren't really there, or allows relatively far-fetched interpretations. I myself don't think that Freemasonry holds some "mystical" secret of the universe that only a few can ferret out. Rather, I believe that the secrets of Freemasonry are right there for the learning; it is that we cannot believe that the true secrets of life are so simple. As one of the Scottish Rite degree mottoes puts it, "Truth...[is] within the reach of any man, would he but open his eyes and see." Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 10-09-96 (14:32) Number: 688 of 697 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Shrine = Prince Hall? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <53gd20$m7f@news2.cais.com> The Grand Lodge indeed has some say about how the Shrine functions in "regular" Freemasonry. Some Shriners found this out the hard way in Virginia a few years ago, when they attempted to raise funds by operating a game of chance. The Grand Master suspended the entire Divan. After purging themselves of their violation of the GL Constitution, which forbids any Masonically-affiliated body from running raffles (I think it may have changed since), it took them about a year to petition all of their bodies for reinstatement. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Musician/Lodge Educ. Officer, Henry Lodge #57, AF&AM of Va., Fairfax Date: 10-09-96 (14:42) Number: 689 of 697 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Masons & WACO/OKC Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <53gdl7$mba@news2.cais.com> Small correction: I have thought of a case where the term "region" is used in Freemasonry. In the General Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons International and the General Grand Council of Cryptic Masons International, there are multi-state groups called regions, for which a Regional Deputy General Grand High Priest or Regional Deputy General Grand Master is responsible. The powers and duties are largely ceremonial. Anyway, I was mistaken to be quite so assertive that "regional" is not used in Freemasonry. But I'll bet our Mr. Sale has never heard of the General Grand Chapter or General Grand Council, and neither of those has anything to do with the Scottish Rite (or Scottish right). Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 10-09-96 (10:42) Number: 690 of 697 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: fowlerrw@pinkinc.com, R W FOWLER Subj: How Does Masonry Benefit Its Members Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Message-ID: <325bb9ea.pktn@pinkinc.com> Organization: In shoeboxes The following is taken from a pamphlet printed by the Grand Lodge of Ohio, "A way of life -- Freemasonry" How Does Masonry Benefit its Members Perhaps, it is best to point out initially that Masonry is not an insurance or beneficial society; and it sets no political, economic, or social goals. Masonry is a fraternity whose primary purpose is to make good men better. It is a character-building organization. It assists a man in better knowing himself, and better understanding his role in life. Freemasonry is not a religion, even though it is religious in character. It does not pretend to take the place of religion nor serve as a substitute for the religious beliefs of its members. However, many Masons acknowledge that Masonry has given them a deeper relationship with God and helped them develop their faith. Through its social activities, Masonry bulids fellowship, often initiating lifelong friendships. Its activities and teachings help strengthen the family unit. It helps build pride and patriotism in our nation, and it promotes better citizenship. A Mason who becomes active in the workings of his Lodge also has the opportunity for much eprsonal development of management and speaking skills. A Mason acquires the sense of belonging to something that is important, worthwhile, and personally rewarding. The Teachings Of Freemasonry Masonry teaches the Golden Rule. It seeks to improve men through its firm belief in the Fatherhood of God, the Brotherhood of Man, and the Immortality of the Soul. The tenets of Freemasonry are ethical principles that are acceptable to all good men. It teaches tolerance toward all mankind. It dictates to no man as to his beliefs, either religious or secular. It seeks no advantage for its members through business or politics. Freemasonry is not a forum for discussions on partisan affairs. Freemasonry -- A Way of Life Freemasonry is kindness in the home, honesty in business, courtesy in society, fairness in work, pity and concern for the unfortunate, resistance toward evil, help for the weak, love for one another, and above all, reverence and love for God. Freemasonry is many things, but most of all: FREEMASONRY IS A WAY OF LIFE! Date: 10-09-96 (18:25) Number: 695 of 697 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: gbenz@execpc.com, GENE BENZING Subj: Re: Masonry of 100 years ago Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Exec-PC BBS Internet - Milwaukee, WI Message-ID: <325C50A0.5E55@execpc.com> Reply-To: gbenz@execpc.com Edwin Davidson wrote: > > Would anyone have interesting trivia of how Masonry was, say, 100 years > ago ? The format of the evening, how did Masons get to lodge, how were > the lodges lighted, variations on the degree work, how far apart were > lodges out in the countryside (as they did not have cars), the type of > dress worn, etc. > > I do love history very much and am interested in the way and means of > Masonry of 100 years ago or so. > > Thank you. > > -- Here is an interesting bit of trivia about the lodge that I was raised in Nevadaville #2 in Colorado. The lodge is located above Central City in what used to be a mining district. Mason/miners would come to lodge in the evening. When lodge had ended, most stayed over in several bunk rooms adjacent to the lodge room as travel at night was treacherous because of all the open mine shafts. Not sure of the year but sometime in the 1860-1880 time frame,as the story goes, a brother who had been black balled for sleeping with a Master Mason's wife went across the canyon from the lodge and opened fire from behind a rock to voice his displeasure. A bullet hole is still visible in the wall, just above the Senior Warden's station in the West. Gene Date: 10-10-96 (14:53) Number: 704 of 717 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais2.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: WHY? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <53j2lt$beg@news2.cais.com> Why should men become Masons? Let's analogize: Why join a church? You can read the Bible at home. Why join the Boy Scouts? You can go camping alone. Why join a bridge club? You can play solitaire or read the newspaper bridge column. The answer to all of these is that men working together can do things that men alone cannot. And if men want to study morality and support others who want to improve themselves by laboring in the symbolic quarries of Freemasonry, why not? We don't pressure anyone to join; we only accept men who come to us of their own free will and accord. Why does the human race need Masons? Because it needs them among many groups who will stand up for the principles of freedom, religious toleration, justice, and truth. Freemasonry spread the concepts of the Enlightenment faster than any other institution. It inspired the political philosophy that underlies the American republic and produced patriots who fought for freedom all over the Western Hemisphere. If there had been no Freemasonry, we might all still be ruled by tyrants and despots. That you live in a free world, where you can SHOUT YOUR CRITICISMS of a group you don't know much about, is due very much to the existence of Freemasonry and the intellectual ferment that it created and disseminated. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 10-10-96 (16:13) Number: 714 of 717 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: thehalls@elite.net, MIKE HALL Subj: Re: CoMasonry Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Elite Networking - Merced, CA Message-ID: In article <325C56A2.688@iprolink.ch>, Gilles Goy wrote: > Could someone tell me what exactly is CoMasonry? I have never heard this > term before I started to surf the net. Is it a particular american term > for something which could be named otherwise in Europe? CoMasonry is the general term for Lodges which admit women, or both men and women. It is my understanding that it is more prevalent in Europe than in America, although it might go by a different name. I believe "Le Droit Humaine", first started in France, is one of the principal CoMasonry organizations. There has been much discussion of it on this board from time to time. Below is something published in "Masonry Universal..." some time ago. Mike Hall MM Yosemite Lodge #99 Merced CA (the following is best viewed in Courier or a monospaced font in 10 pt size.) +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Le Droit Humain | | | |International Co-Freemasonry, Le Droit Humain, is a Masonic Obedience | |differing from Ancient and Accepted Freemasonry chiefly in two ways. | |First, it admits women on equal footing with men; and second, it | |combines Craft Masonry, Scottish Rite Masonry, and York Rite Masonry | |in a single international jurisdiction. | | | |These differences, which set it apart from most Masonic practice, | |were adopted by Co-Freemasonry as matters of principle. | | | |Since Anderson's Constitutions of 1723, it has been generally held | |that women may not be admitted into Freemasonry. The restriction of | |Masonry to men has consequently been widely regarded as a Landmark. | |However, Co-Freemasons argue, there is no obvious intrinsic reason why| |women should not be initiated, and the fundamental principle of | |Equality would seem to favor their admission, lest Equality be seen as| |limited to half the human race. | | | |Therefore, Co-Freemasons, while respecting the older tradition of | |masculine Masonry, believe that their practice is in accord with the | |most basic values of the Craft. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | The Admission of Women | | | |The admission of women and the foundation of Co-Freemasonry came about| |in this manner. | | | |In the 1880s the Brethren of a French lodge appropriately named "Les | |Libres Penseurs" (The Free Thinkers) in the Orient of Le Pecq (near | |Paris) came to the conclusion that the restriction of Masonry to males| |was not a Landmark of the Order, but a social custom whose time had | |passed. Accordingly, they initiated Marie Deraismes, a prominent | |worker for women's rights in France. | | | |Thus was Co-Masonry conceived, but it took about ten years to become | |established. | | | |In 1893, Dr. Georges Martin, a French Senator and advocate of equal | |rights for women, joined Marie Deraismes and other male Masons in | |founding in Paris La Respectable Loge, Le Droit Humain, Maconnerie | |Mixte (Worshipful Lodge Human Rights, Co-Masonry). They initiated, | |passed, and raised seventeen prominent French women. The | |Co-Freemasonic Order traces its origin from this foundation. | | | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | The Supreme Council | | | |By 1901 a second French Co-Masonic lodge had come into existence, and | |the government of the Order was changed from a Grand Lodge to a | |Supreme Council. Thereafter the Order spread quickly elsewhere in | |France and in England, Argentina, India, the Netherlands, Italy, and | |the United States. The English social worker and champion of home rule| |for India, Annie Besant, introduced Co-Masonry into England in 1902. | | | |The first American lodge was founded in 1903 in Charleroi, | |Pennsylvania, among a group of French-speaking Belgian miners and | |their wives. | | | |The second distinction of Co-Freemasonry, its international | |jurisdiction and unification of rites under one governing body, | |testifies to a conviction that Masonic brotherhood is an expression of| |the essential unity of humanity. Each country of the world with an | |adequate number of Co-Freemasonic Lodges is organized as a national | |Federation. The chief governing body is the Supreme Council in Paris, | |although each Federation has considerable autonomy under its | |Consistory, which is headed by a Representative of the Supreme | |Council, who is styled Grand Commander. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Anglophone Co-Freemasonry | | | |Because of its history, American Craft Co-Freemasonry differs in | |certain respects from the practice of Ancient and Accepted Masonry in | |this country. The first American Co-Masonic Lodge was French-speaking | |and used French rituals. When the Order spread to Anglophone | |Americans, rather than translate the French rituals or borrow from | |American masculine practices, they adopted forms already developed | |among Co-Masons in Britain based upon the traditions of the Grand | |Lodge of England. Thus, for example, American Co-Masons use | |English-style aprons and the three EA Tools of English custom. | | | |Despite the unification implied by international jurisdiction, there | |is a good deal of variation in Co-Freemasonic ritual from one country | |to another, and sometimes even within the same land. Most American | |Craft lodges use a single ritual, but in England, a variety of Craft | |rituals are in active use, which are of Scottish, Irish, and English | |provenance. The Order is basically Scottish Rite in its degree | |structure but, especially in Anglophone countries, works such | |additional degrees as the Mark, Royal Arc Mariner, and Holy Royal | |Arch. Even among Scottish Rite degrees, there is variation in which | |are actively worked from one national Federation to another. | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | European Co-Freemasonry | | | |The Order is extensive and populous in some countries of Europe, | |especially France and Belgium. It is much smaller in the United | |States, where most lodges consist of only a handful of Brethren. | |(Although in France a woman Freemason is called "sister," in the | |English-speaking world, masculine terms such as "brother" have | |traditionally been applied to both sexes.) Because of their small | |size, American Co-Masonic lodges generally meet in rented quarters | |rather than in their own Temples. | | | |In Europe there is strong emphasis on social justice and fellowship | |among Co-Freemasons. In America, because of their limited size, most | |Co-Freemasonic lodges put relatively little emphasis on the social | |aspects of Masonry and are unable to engage in large-scale charitable | |work, comparable to the excellent service done by masculine Masonic | |bodies. Although both social fellowship and charity are regarded as | |essential aspects of Co-Masonry, as they are generally in Freemasonry,| |Co-Masonic lodges tend to focus on ceremonial work and the symbolic | |meaning of the ritual as a form of nonsectarian and ecumenical | |spiritual exercise to enrich the lives of the Brethren. | | | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Additional Degrees | | | |In addition to its Craft lodges, the American Federation has Mark | |Lodges, Chapters of the Holy Royal Arch and of the Rose Croix, | |Areopagi, and the Consistory. An annual convention is held at which | |Co-Masons from across America gather for business, ritual, and | |instruction. | | | |Although few in numbers, Co-Freemasons are dedicated to preserving and| |spreading the traditions of the Craft to all humanity without | |distinction of sex, race, nationality, creed, or class. | |______________________________________________________________________| | | | About the Author | | | |John Algeo 30* edits the bulletin of the | |American Federation of International Co-Freemasonry. Professor | |Emeritus of English at the University of Georgia, he is currently | |President of the Dictionary Society of North America and President of | |the Theosophical Society in America. Listed in the 1996 Who's Who in | |America, he has been a Guggenheim Fellow and a Fulbright Senior | |Research Fellow at the University of London. | | | | | | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ Date: 10-11-96 (08:37) Number: 718 of 732 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jgbennie@vcn.bc.ca, JIM BENNIE Subj: Re: Masonry of 100 years ago Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Vancouver CommunityNet Message-ID: <53l105$emc@milo.vcn.bc.ca> Dr. Roger M. Firestone (rfire@cais2.cais.com) wrote: : "[I]n the days before electricity" the tracing board was a real tracing : board. It was a large easel with a 3x4 (or so) board with illustrations : on it. The lecturer would point to the individual symbols as they were : reached in the lecture. I believe that tracing boards are still : available from Masonic supply companies such as Macoy. Slides are : certainly eaiser to use for groups of candidates. Tracing Boards are still used in .. well, almost any Lodge that speaks English outside of the United States (Canadian Lodges which do USA-type workings do not use tracing boards). As for "groups" of candidates, we're not allowed in BC to take more than five through a degree simutaneously and five can hover around one tracing board quite nicely. I understand in some jursidictions, the lectures on the EA and FC tracing boards have fallen by the wayside. In BC Canadian/New South Wales working Lodges, the JW is expected to give the EA lecture and the SW, the FC lecture as "proof" they can advance a station the following year. The lectures are never skipped here.. though the Canadian working lectures are far shorter than Emulation or New South Wales rituals as certain symbols on the EA board are not used in the Canadian working and a portions of the FC lecture were deleted 130-plus years ago as not being historically accurate. Jim Bennie WM Southern Cross #44 PM Plantagenet #65 Vancouver BC Date: 10-12-96 (05:33) Number: 735 of 751 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rl3s@netcom.com, ZEUS PALEOLOGOS Subj: Re: CoMasonry Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) PAST AUTHORS' INTERPOLATION KEY: >J: is John Aponte (cynjon@cris.com) >>E: is Edward Punt In article <325ECB5C.17F8@cris.com> on Fri, 11 Oct 1996 18:34:04 -0400, John & Cynthia Aponte (cynjon@cris.com) wrote: >J: Edward Punt wrote: >>E: Ancient Landmarks. *Landmark Eighteen - Certain qualifications of >>E: candidates for initation are derived from a Landmark of the craft. These >>E: qualifications are that he should be a man, unmutilated, free born and of >>E: mature age. That is to say, a woman, a cripple,or a slave, or one born in >>E: slavery, is disqualified for initiation into the rites of Masonry.* >J: Im confused!! Are you quoting the actual Landmarks? Is that what the "*" >J: indicate. Or are you paraphrasing? Albert Mackey, the 19th Century Masonic scholar, is perhaps the best source on this subject. He wrote an article entitled "The Landmarks, or the Unwritten Law" which I strongly recommend to you. In this article, he describes the three-fold division of Masonic Law to be the Landmarks, General Regulations, and Local Regulations based on the difference in their origins. Legalists describe two kind of laws: leges scriptae and leges nonscriptae, that is, written and unwritten law. It is generally agreed that the Landmarks comprise the unwritten laws of Freemasonry. According to Mackey, the essential elements of these unwritten laws include their antiquity (so ancient as to veil their origins) and their unrepealability, The Ancient Landmarks are the most fundamental laws by which Masonry is defined. A number of lists of Landmarks have been compiled and generally agree with each other. Mackey's list is probably the most well-known and most quoted. It is an article from this list that Bro. Punt is quoting and quoting exactly, I believe. >J: You indicate that qualifications are "derived" from a Landmark and then >J: list the qualifications. Without the actual Landmark cited, there is no >J: way to determine the derivation. This "derived from" construction here appears to be Mackey's style of wording alluding to the unwritten law. >J: When examining the qualifications, you site "should be". This is rather >J: vague. There is a hugh difference between "should not" and "may not". "Should" originally and primarily carried a connotation of "necessary," still present in the variant "shall." Today, it also and more commonly conveys something less, namely, "desirable." Mackay's list was compiled over a hundred years ago. From other writings by him, it is clear that his usage here of "should" connotes "necessary." >J: The word "unmutilated" is used. Again vague. If we use the literal of >J: the word, I should never have been made a Mason. I have scars from >J: surgery and I have lost the tip of my middle finger. Further, I >J: personally know at least one Mason who lost his leg in a farming >J: accident in his teens. The origins of this qualification are likely to be found in Operative Masonry wherein any person who was not able-bodied would not be able to perform all the *building* tasks required of him. Your "mutilations" would not prevent you from carrying out Masonic work in Lodge. However, a man who had lost a leg would be considerably disadvantaged. Some jurisdictions have winked at this requirement-- to a Masonic fundamentalist, they are in violation of the Ancient Landmarks. >J: The issue of slavery is also a problem. What constitutes slavery? Law? >J: Opinion? Social definition? At the time Mackey published his list, that was obvious. IMO, it still is. Slavery is involuntary servitude whether in serfdom, indenture, or common slavery. Today, it is banned world-wide though some underground practices are still alleged to exist. >J: These comments and questions are not meant to denigrate your opinions. >J: They are presented so we Masons may examine the validity of our >J: exclusions with full knowledge and not blind faith. Mackey used the language of his day in his attempt to describe the Ancient Landmarks of Freemasonry. I think that if you look to additional commentary by Mackey and others you will find the clarification that you seek. >J: If we are going to justify exclusion of women and others in main stream >J: Masonry, we must be precise. The lists of Landmarks for the most part are relatively brief descriptions and like the Ten Commandments, for example, are subject to some interpretation. Additional commentary and other readings will facilitate understanding here. If your search for precision here is an honest one, it is misguided. Laws applicable to human behavior cannot inherently be defined, operate or apply precisely, just as humans are not precise in any sense of a standard for real precision. Systems of jurisprudence recognize this fact and do well in accommodating it by providing various means for interpretation and adjudication under laws which are sometimes somewhat less than precise. >J: Our failure to do so can often result in >J: hard feelings and misunderstandings. Not to mention fuel for all of the >J: anti Masonic kith. Perhaps, but if truly precise answers could be had in any domain of human endeavor, we would then be blessed with no further disputes in that domain. But as disputes continue universal, so we know that no one yet has formulated a precise statement on anything whatsoever though I assure you that I have read some laws that did make an valiant attempt. :-S. Date: 10-12-96 (14:27) Number: 736 of 751 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: tmorgen@ix.netcom.com, T MORGENTHALER Subj: Re: What is Freemasonry and Why is it Secret. Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Netcom Message-ID: <53o9rt$o4t@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> In <01bbb80b$3322f2a0$65541fce@apc0260.apcnet> "mstarr" writes: > >Why is freemasonry a secret? Hello, You wrote: > >Why is freemasonry a secret? > You can't learn very much about freemasonry in this short message, but you should get an idea by this response to your question of secrecy: > It is not secret. That is a myth. Freemasonry is an organization that mimics the period of time in the scriptures that King Solomon of Israel was building a temple (building) unto God. If you look in 1st & 2nd Kings, 1st & 2nd Chronicles and other books of the Old Testament, you will find all there is to know of freemasonry. In those times, the ancients built stuctures, modern masons build character through the use of symbols, lectures and the practice of charity and brotherly love. There is no secret in doing that. Our alleged 'secrets' can be found in your own family. The masonic fraternity is just that, a family, and as a member of that family you will undoubedly hear some things of a personal nature. Just as you would or should respect the secrets of your own family, you should respect those same secrets of your masonic brethren. Lets suppose that your father came home and lost his job. This is very embarrassing to most fathers. Would you imediately go out and tell all your friends, "my dad just got fired"? You would not if you had any real respect for your father. I used that illustration because most of society today would do just that, broadcast the worst of their family news. "Dad lost his job".. maybe "my sister is pregnant" or how about "hey, my cousin is an alcoholic" Well, masons don't or should not do that. Those are the real secrets of freemasonry and what make us different from the rest of the community. We (most of us) can keep those secrets. To our critics, who accuse us of some sinister plots or keeping things from the rest of society, you find people who are compulsed to get into everyone else's business. They thrive on digging up dirt of any kind. Just listen to a talk show host. Are we talking about anything pleasant? Is the dirtier the story, the more popular? We live in a society today that is not as interested in positive things anymore. The masonic fraternity gives more to charity than any church in the world, yet it is certain churches that have the nerve to criticize us the most. What do we concentrate on? The postitive or the negative. What were you interesting in digging up here? Pleasant things or the negative things that excite us? I ask you that, because I don't really know what your motivation is. Perhaps your question was genuine. I hope so and if not, then are probably disappointed or won't believe what is told you. Out of my curiosity, why did you ask? Regards, Ted Morgenthaler, PM, Central City, Colorado Date: 10-11-96 (15:13) Number: 737 of 751 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: sampersilk@earthlink.net, JASON REEVES Subj: New E.A. Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Samper Silk Screen Message-ID: <01bbb787$94e7ae60$105f55ce@sampersilk> Greetings, Last night, Thursday, October 10, I received the Entered Apprentice degree at Redondo Lodge #328. Truly, an unforgettable experience. I would like to thank those of you on this board for your discussions and disputes; without them I might never have done the research that led me to Masonry. In extending my thanks, I include Joken and the others that are rabidly against Masonry. They have their place in directing potential Brothers to Masonry. I hope he is not offended for having helped to show me the true path to light. Again, my thanks for sharing all of your insights and experiences. I look forward to the future degrees with a level of anticipation I have never felt before. Jason Augustus Reeves Date: 10-11-96 (21:50) Number: 738 of 751 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: bortigar.nightwolf@magusbooks.com, BORTIGAR NIGHTWOLF Subj: New E.A. Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Message-ID: Organization: Magus Online (http://www.magusbooks.com) Okay, I know this may sound highly niaeve but, is it true, (And I mean under the one we trust in, true) That the Masons as a whole are, or individual groups as it may be, are into uniting the world under one world government? Ruled by mason's. See I realize that the fact mason's don't speak about politics in there meetings and all, but if it is not viewed as political but a divine journey wouldn't it then become other than political and be discussed? First off as you can see by this message I am not a mason but have been intruiged by it, so take this and answer if you will.... Thanks... Magus Online! http://www.magusbooks.com Telnet:magusbooks.com Date: 10-12-96 (18:05) Number: 739 of 751 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rl3s@netcom.com, ZEUS PALEOLOGOS Subj: Re: CoMasonry Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) PAST AUTHORS' INTERPOLATION KEY: >T: is Theosophical Society (nyts@dorsai.org) >>E: is Edward Punt (sgtp8506@imcbbs.imcnet.net) In article <53odg7$52a@amanda.dorsai.org> on 12 Oct 1996 11:29:11 -0400, New York Theosophical Society (nyts@dorsai.org) wrote: >T: Edward Punt (sgtp8506@imcbbs.imcnet.net) wrote: >>E: With all due respect to Ms Wintermute and thousands of Co-Masons around >>E: the world, it is impossible for a woman to become a Mason. >T: I used to watch the ongoing construction of The Cathedral of St. >T: John the Divine, and there were a number of female masons working there. So of what regular Masonic Lodge were they members? >>E: Mason. This rule can not be changed by anyone because it is one of the >>E: Ancient Landmarks. >T: Of ONE group of Masons. ^^^ Yes. The *legitimate* ONE. -- "Change for its own sake serves no purpose but to disturb the inherent order of things to the end only of enhancing the egos of the 'reformers.'" --ZP Date: 10-13-96 (03:59) Number: 751 of 751 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: ggoy@iprolink.ch, GILLES GOY Subj: Re: CoMasonry Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Message-ID: <32604D02.4A52@iprolink.ch> Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Hello Brother Edward, > With all due respect to Ms Wintermute and thousands of Co-Masons around > the world, it is impossible for a woman to become a Mason. You can say > that it isn't fair, it isn't moral and that the concept of an *only male* > Lodge is outdated, but the fact remains the same; only a man can become a > Mason. This rule can not be changed by anyone because it is one of the > Ancient Landmarks. *Landmark Eighteen - Certain qualifications of > candidates for initation are derived from a Landmark of the craft. These > qualifications are that he should be a man, unmutilated, free born and of > mature age. That is to say, a woman, a cripple,or a slave, or one born in > slavery, is disqualified for initiation into the rites of Masonry.* > > *Landmark Twenty-Fifth - The last and crowning Landmark of all is that > these Landmarks can never be changed. Nothing can be subtracted from them > - nothing can be added to them. As they were received from our > predecessors, we are bound by the most solemn obligations of dut to > transmit them to our successors...* > > You may be practicing Masonry but it is impossible for a woman to be a > Mason. > > Edward Punt > Lawton Lodge #183 > Lawton, OK > Residing at Fort Drum, NY > > *The Ways Of Virtue Are Beautiful* > > http://freedomstarr.com/?PU4447491 The question of Landmarks seems to be the "core" of the problem. I only knows the french version of the text you quoted, but it seems quite close to it, if not exactly what I read. But even if that was clearly said in the Anderson Constitution or any Landmark that no women could become a freemason, should we continue to respect it despite any evolution. I mean it was impossible at that time XVII-XVIII th century that a women could be accepted in any english society, freemasonry or any other club (quite a successful hobby in that period of history). But after many decades, it's obvious that the woman status in modern cultures has evolved to a more acceptable level. I will always defend the tradition of rituals and symbols. These should not be changed if we want to stay true freemasons, but what the purpose of such great symbols and human values, if they lead us to have the same thinking about women than 300 years ago? One last word about the Landmark. It's clearly said that a mason shall never reveal any of his degree's justification, nor of any fact happening in lodge. I have seen many oath broken officialy on internet by even GL's. For example, I have seen the name of famous masons on an official site. Even if these people were known to be masons, that doesn't change the Landmark which tell us to never say: "Mr. xxxxx is a mason." So, are the Landmarks really the point or is there any fear amongst many brothers to admitt women as fully initiated masons? Surely both exists, and there could be other reasons... I'm not judging any one, but I just try to understand why there is still so much intolerance for our equals. Best fraternal regards, Gilles Goy Lausanne, Switzerland. Date: 10-13-96 (09:11) Number: 753 of 773 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: nschlink@rex.re.uokhsc.edu, NSCHLINK Subj: Re: Masons & WACO/OKC Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA) Message-ID: <3260adee.1184483@news.uoknor.edu> On Sat, 12 Oct 1996 07:19:18 GMT, dsale@users.southeast.net (Danny Sale) wrote: > >>So who did own the land on which the Alfred P. Murrah building was >>located? > >(fowarded) >The land on which the Murrah Building sat was originally owned by the >Oklahoma Masonic Lodge Number 36 in the early 1920s. It was (along >with a lot of other downtown property) at different times owned, borrowed, >leased, and traded among several other fraternal orders -- the India Temple >Shrine, the benevolent and Protective Order of Elks and the Knights of >Columbus (in addition to the Masons). During the Depression of the 1930s, all of >these orders lost their downtown property holdings and moved elsewhere. >Much of the property was re-purchased in later years. > >It is believed that the Masons now hold title to the land under the >former Murrah Building and did so at the time of the blast. Property tax >records will reveal the "for sure" nature of this information. Many real >estate records concerning some of the now-destroyed downtown properties are >for some reason not readily available. I know why and am attempting to >obtain same. So, we just keep on keepin' on in that regard. The proof will >not be difficult to obtain once certain other documents come to light. >Without question, however, is the Masonic ownership of the Journal >Record Building, located directly across the street to the north of the >Murrah Building. It was built in 1923 by the Masonic Temple Building >Association of Oklahoma Lodge 36 and shared space for many years with the Indi a >Temple Shrine. It is odd how things are and how they can be misconstrued. I am a member of Oklahoma City Lodge #36, and I feel I would know if there were a plot boiling considering the senseless murder of innocent men, women, and children. For one thing, yes! OKC #36 is the former owner of the Journal Record Building. That was our first lodge building, and we have tried to regain the cornerstone that is still embedded in the condemned building. We would like to get the cornerstone and perhaps create a memorial, but the Brother who was taking charge of the effort has passed on without someone to take charge and lead the initiative once again. Also, it may help to know that at that time OKC #36 was not known by that designation...we became 36 when we moved to the new building constructed in 1963 and therefore could not be considered owners as "#36" in 1920. At the time of our ownership, I believe we were #1, as we were the first lodge after statehood (and not Indian Territory). As far as the rumors as to who owned the land for the Murrah building, I have seen no evidence to indicate that my lodge owns any part of that land/area. We receive no money it that regard, and we pay no property taxes for that land. We certainly have received nothing in regards to that, and I don't ever expect to receive anything to that effect. In fact, at this time the city is planning a memorial for those killed in the bombing at the site of the blast, and I know we are not receiving any permission requests of any sort. If we are involved in any way it is so secret that we masons don't even know about it!!! Nathan S. OKC #36, AF&AM Date: 10-13-96 (03:30) Number: 754 of 773 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: ggoy@iprolink.ch, GILLES GOY Subj: Re: CoMasonry Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Message-ID: <32604646.4094@iprolink.ch> Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Hello Janet, > Hello, Gilles. Co-Freemasonry is the generic term for all-female > masonry plus mixed-gender masonry. Most of the posters to this > newsgroup are active in masculine masonry, and some of them don't > believe there can be such a thing as a woman mason. Telling that to > the 60,000 female masons in England might raise a few eyebrows. Ditto > for the members of the 300 French lodges under the Grand Loge Feminine > de France. Yes, Europe has quite many mixed or female lodges. > The biggest of the mixed organizations is Le Droit Humain, originally > chartered by the Grand Orient of France. DH masonry is international, > and I've heard several DH masons from outside the U.S. use the term > "co-masonry." I spoke a couple weeks ago with a GO mason from France > originally but now living in the Washington, DC, area. He used the > term "mixed masonry" rather than "co." I guess mixed masonry is better, less downgrading. > Mainstream masonry in this country is not "in amity" with GO or DH or > any of the all-female lodges, to my knowledge. However, in France DH > masons of either gender can attend GO (male) meetings and GO's are > welcome at DH meetings, too. A recent e-note from a Grand Lodge of > Italy mason there confirms that his organization is mixed, as well. > This surprised me a bit as another recent source, Mike Segall of the > Grand Loge National de France (a masculine obedience), remarked that > the Grand Lodge of Italy is descended from GLNF. Maybe he intended to say that his GL fully recognize mixed or female GL's. Many male GL's still remain closed to women but completely recognize them. I think it's very important that there exist the three possibilities: male, mixed and female lodges. Each od these offer different ways of working. > I will be petitioning DH shortly myself. I keep mentioning this to > the newsgroup; the regulars probably think I have a procrastination > problem. But I live just outside the nation's capital, and we don't > have a local DH lodge. So rounding up the necessary two DH MM's to > sign my petition presents a logistic challenge quite different from > the usual masculine scenario. I wish you'll succeed in your attempt. Thanks for your words, Best regards, Gilles Goy Lausanne, Switzerland. Date: 10-12-96 (21:39) Number: 767 of 773 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: hypnosis@pacbell.net, EUGENE GOLDMAN · Subj: Re: CoMasonry Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: His personal offices Message-ID: <32607278.4483@pacbell.net> Zeus Paleologos wrote: > > PAST AUTHORS' INTERPOLATION KEY: > > >G: is Eugene Goldman.·. (hypnosis@pacbell.net) > >>P: is Edward Punt > >>>W: is Janet Wintermute > >>>>Z: is Zeus Paleologos > The Ancient Landmarks embody the definition of Masonry. > By these Landmarks, women are excluded. Therefore, > any organization that claims to include women masons is > not a legitimate Masonic organization by *definition*. > This is the reason that the majority of Bodies Masonic > in both number and membership do not recognize **any** > organization that claims to be Masonic but contains > women masons. It is not just the fact that they are not > recognized, rather it is WHY they are not, namely, being > in violation of the Landmarks of Freemasonry by which > true Masons everywhere define themselves. No, the several Soverign Grand Lodges set the definition of Masonry, in and for their jurisdiction, and as each GL IS soverign and completely autonomous, their definition is binding upon them and them alone. Granted, my GL does not recognise GLs that make female Masons. The FACT that female Masons are NOT recognised by my Grand Lodge absolutely *REQUIRES* the existance of Female Masons to not recognise. Recognition is a slippery thing. Masonically, and IMJ, it means that any Lodges Chartered under a GL that my GL recognises, or is in amity with, may be visited by members of my GL, and our Lodges may accept visitors from the other GL. Other Lodges may not be visited, or have their traveling Masons admitted. If I cannot admit a visitor, this does not mean the visitor is not a Mason. It just means our respective GLs, for whatever reason, are not in amity. The reason for withholding amity is irrelevent. The fact is, a Mason, or the Lodge and Grand Lodge a Mason comes from, may be **_considered_** clandestine, irregular, or unrecognised. Anyone belonging to a Lodge or GL that is **_considered_** irregular, or unrecognised would be an irregular Mason, or unrecognised Mason. Still Masons. Still were Initiated, Passed and Raised. Still participated in the Legend. I may not be able to visit their Lodge, nor they mine, but we are Masons. To rehash a discussion on another service, McDonalds and Burger King have different requirements for making a Hamburger. Their "definitions" of what a hamburger are not the same. Employees of one may not be permitted to patronise the other (I know they are, but let's pretend, ok?) and vise versa. Both may say that "Those hamburgers are not what you will find in OUR restaurant, we do NOT make them like that!" Fine. Neither company, nor any employees of either company, would deny that the other MAKES HAMBURGERS! They may make them differently, by different, mutually unacceptable rules (even Landmarks). They may forbid the other hamburgers to enter their respective resaurants, but they BOTH make hamburgers, and neither could justly deny this. > > >>P: With all due respect to Ms Wintermute and thousands of Co-Masons around > >>P: the world, it is impossible for a woman to become a Mason. You can say > >>P: that it isn't fair, it isn't moral and that the concept of an *only male * > >>P: Lodge is outdated, but the fact remains the same; only a man can become a > >>P: Mason. This rule can not be changed by anyone because it is one of the > >>P: Ancient Landmarks. *Landmark Eighteen - Certain qualifications of > >>P: candidates for initation are derived from a Landmark of the craft. Thes e > >>P: qualifications are that he should be a man, unmutilated, free born and o f > >>P: mature age. That is to say, a woman, a cripple,or a slave, or one born in > >>P: slavery, is disqualified for initiation into the rites of Masonry.* In your resaurant, true. In others, you will find different condiments on the counter. > > >>P: You may be practicing Masonry but it is impossible for a woman to be a > >>P: Mason. It is impossible, in your jurisdiction! Mine as well. That is probably why there ARE jurisdictions where it IS possible, and done on a regular basis. > > >G: I was taught that what makes us Masons was our Obligations. No one said > >G: anything to me about chromozomes. > >Z: And you probably mean by your obligation, a expression of > words. But what makes you a Mason is more than that. It > is principally the act of obligation itself, not just the > words in isolation. And by that act, you obligated yourself > to obey and abide by the rules and regulations governing > the Order whether they had any particular "chromosomal" > consequences or not. These rules and regulations include > the Ancient Landmarks, general regulations and local > regulations of Freemasonry as I pointed out in an earlier > article in this thread. And I Obligated myself never to participate in or even observe the practice. NOT to deny their existence. I have NEVERT violated my Obligation, nor even considered violating it. I HAVE questioned it at times. I have researched it and it's implications. I have been, and always will be true to both the letter and the spirit of ALL my Obligations. As one who has advocated that Candidates do the same, I can do no less. But I repeat, I NEVER promised to deny reality, or the *existence* of Masons who were not recognised by my GL. Did you? > > >G: Sure, I cannot visit a Co-Masonic or female Lodge, and their members cann ot > >G: visit my Lodge. But saying that 600,000 Masons in England, 300 or more > ^^^^^^^ > >Z: Be careful here. This is the way false information gets > propagated. The correct figure is said to be 60,000 which > is one-tenth what you publish. Thank you for pointing out my error. This was a typo. The correct figure is 60,000 as you say. I hit the key toooo many times . > > >G: Lodges in France and the others around the world do not exist, or are not > >G: "really Masons", just because my GL does not have "diplomatic relations" > >G: with them is denial of reality. > >Z: No one denies the reality of co-masons but rather their > legitimacy, for they are not recognized by the vast > majority in number as well as membership world-wide of > legitimate Masonic institutions. Therefore, they are > not *really* Masonic. And from a legal perspective > regarding the entitlement to grants of legitimacy to > others and questions thereof, the authority of > an originator shall prevail. Saying that they are not Masons is denying the reality of their membership in the fraternity. Saying that they are not recognised, or even members of "irregular" GLs, may be accurate, but saying they are not really Masons is denial. > > >G: I know, personally, several members of DH, as well as female Lodges. I w ill > >G: say, without exception or reservation, all of them are *exemplary* Masons , > >G: and more deserving of the title than many members of my own Grand Lodge, > >G: IMHO. > > *All* of them are "exemplary" while many of your own > true Brothers are not??? Sounds to me like you should > have joined their organization instead of ours. Whatever I should have done, I repeat that I have never been treated with anything other than the respect due a Brother Mason by any member of a GL that makes female Masons. I have by some of my "recognised" Brethren, but never the others. Make no mistake, I stand by my choice to be a member of the Grand Lodge of California, rather than DH, St. Peter, Son's of Light, PH, or any other GL. I made the right decision for myself. The fact that the same option was, and is not available or chosen for some others does not stop me from admitting that they are my Brothers and Sisters in Masonry. I am proud to know the ones I do, and always happy to share the Brotherly Love that all Masons should share, even if we can never sit in Lodge together. > > -- > "That multiple points of view are possible in no way implies that all are > equally valid, anymore than saying that many geographical vantage points > are all likely to yield the same spectacular view." --ZP "Let us never forget that we are one Family, Created by one Almighty Parent, and should treat each other with Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth." -- ELG -- Be well. Travel with a light heart. Gene Goldman P.·. M.·. Blackmer Lodge #442, San Diego, Ca. Black Mountain Masonic Lodge, U.·.D.·. Southern Ca. Research Lodge A.A.S.R., Valley of San Diego If you can read this, you have gone too far! Date: 10-13-96 (10:09) Number: 768 of 773 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: m.pohjanpalo@pp.kolumbus.fi, MIKA POHJANPALO Subj: Re: EA degree (was Letter "G") Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Kolumbus Information Network, Finnet Group Message-ID: <326095A5.6620@pp.kolumbus.fi> Reply-To: m.pohjanpalo@pp.kolumbus.fi Jim Bennie wrote: > Mike.. doing business in the MM is an American innovation.. > and is exclusive to the US and several Canadian jurisdictions > (BC is one) which were influenced by American customs at > their formation. Brethren, I'd like to add that Blue Lodges in Finland, Europe, are always opened and closed (did I use the correct word, do you "close" a Lodge?) in 3rd Degree. Reason for this is that Blue Masonry was brought to Finland in 1922 from The GL of New York. So please add Finland to the list above ;-) Fraternally & Sincerely, Bro. Mike Pohjanpalo, MM Espoo Lodge #118, SW Finland, Europe Date: 10-11-96 (22:39) Number: 769 of 773 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: Glenna@SFF.net, GLENNA FROST Subj: Re: Eastern Star Newsgroup? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: None Message-ID: <325ecc1b.34806002@news.insync.net> Reply-To: Glenna@SFF.net Hi, Jim, Jim Owens wrote: >I am looking for a newsgroup relating to Eastern Star for her. >Any suggestions would be appreciated since my searching has been >fruitless. I haven't been able to find anything related to Eastern Star, either. I thought a bit about starting an OES mailing list or newsgroup, but I haven't pursued either. If anyone is interested and would let me know, I would certainly try to get something going! --- Glenna Frost, PM Archives #1095, AC Bluebell #856, TX OES Glenna@SFF.net http://www.sff.net/people/glenna news://news.sff.net/sff.people.gfrost Date: 10-12-96 (03:10) Number: 770 of 773 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: CSCAO@lusta.latrobe.edu.au, OZ,AYDIN Subj: Why are WOMEN not allowed to join ? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry,soc.women,soc.women.lesbian-and-bi,alt.women.suprem acy,alt.women.attitudes,rec.sport.basketball.women,bionet.women-in-bio,soc.righ ts.human,alt.feminism,soc.feminism,alt.feminism.individualism Message-ID: Cancelled by swlab moderator. Approval was forged. Date: 10-14-96 (05:59) Number: 775 of 790 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: sirtom@ix.netcom.com, SIRTOM Subj: Re: Jesus Layed Brick, saw theater Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Netcom Message-ID: <53si65$jls@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> Could be. The original Greek speaks of Jesus as a "tektron" which means "builder" (this is where we get the term architech: Master Builder). Tradition informs us that Jesus 'built' with wood; but He may well have built with stone as well. Date: 10-13-96 (20:02) Number: 781 of 790 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: hiramcape@aol.com, HIRAMCAPE Subj: Re: New Membership Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Message-ID: <53rvv9$ofg@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: hiramcape@aol.com (HiramCape) Hello, Brothers. I am the Masonic Awareness Chairman of Universal Lodge AF & AM in Orleans, Massachusetts. Over the past few years we have developed a very successful Masonic Awareness program. Last year, we raised <>16 new candidates. Right now we have twelve candidates in various parts of the process (either having started the Degrees or about to start in January...). Here are some of the things we do that have been successful: 1. We hold a Masonic Awareness night once a year, usually in April. We send out invitations to <>40-50 potential candidates (usually obtained from the few "major players" in the Lodge plus whatever the rest of the membership submits). The potential candidates and their wives are invited to a dinner which is followed by a presentation on Masonry. At the conclusion of the presentation, we advise them that the first step towards becoming a Mason is the pre-application interview, whereupon all of the past Masters stand up and offer themselves to conduct pre-apps right on the spot. Last spring we had 12 guests and we had applications from every single one of them within thirty days. Note: As of December 1994, Massachusetts Masons are allowed to ASK someone to join, rather than waiting for him to ask us. Obviously, if your GL is still under the old rules, you can still get around it - we used to say, "You know, in order to become a Mason you have to ask... so when are you going to ask me?" 2. Each year, we hold a Christmas party for the children in the community. It is a low-cost, low-energy effort (i.e. hire a magician or story teller, decorate the Lodge and pass out handbills to all kids in our three elementary schools (<>2,000 kids). Last year had about 75 kids there - and got two of the dad's to join... anything male that walks in the door gets a "What it Means to be a Mason" brochure. 3. Each year, we hold an alcohol-free Oktoberfest at the local middle school. This even draws 7 to 10 thousand people and makes us significant money for our public Charity funds. It is also an EXCELLENT Masonic Awareness event. 4. A very important thing to look at is how your Lodge is perceived in the community. We have worked on this for many years... Today, we have local businesses that donate the funds for the Christmas party. There is a printer that publishes an ad booklet for Oktoberfest and gives us 1/2 the net. There is a local tourism magazine that is setting up a Masonic Tourist Information web site (and giving a percentage of the business referral listing fees to our Royal Arch Chapter's charity fund). Last year, we had a book drive for scholarship $$$. I had the kids at the local high school collecting books. We had a contest with prizes such as: color television, typewriter, Sony CD stereo, walkman radios...etc. Every single prize was donated by local, non-Masonic businesses. All we have to do is walk in and say the donation is for the Masons and the proprietor gives generously. 5. We made our Masonic Service program a real priority last year. Remember, all of your sick and shut-in Brothers have sons and grandsons. Last year, we recruited two candidates (brothers) after providing excellent service to the family when the father and grandfather died within eight weeks of each other. When we visit our shut-ins or those who are in the hospital, we bring them a coffee mug with our name on it full of hard candy or carnations. Lots of visibility... Significantly, we are probably not your "typical" Masonic Lodge. Our Master is 36, Senior Warden is 33, Secretary is 36, Sr. Deacon is 30..etc. We are bringing in mainly candidates that fall into this age group, also. It was VERY hard for some of the old guard to let go of the reins, but as one of them recently said to me "I don't agree with your methods all the time, but I certainly can't argue with the results..." Other Masonic awareness project - just announced - our local Royal Arch Chapter will be hosting its district Affirmation Sunday service at the local Roman Catholic Church - we are told this may be the first time in Massachusetts RA history... Our Royal Arch Chapter is also working with the local police towards our sponsorship of a children's bicycle safety training course. If anyone else has MAC questions, please feel free to post them. I just discovered this newsgroup, so I'm sure I'll be around a bit. Take care, one and all. Date: 10-14-96 (23:50) Number: 788 of 790 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais2.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Gov. Keating of Oklahoma is not a mason Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <53ujkg$c9f@news2.cais.com> >Coincidence? I THINK NOT. Actually, a one-in-a-million chance occurs to some 250 people in the US every day. The odds against being struck by lightning are 250,000 to 1 against in any particular year--about a thousand Americans have that unfortunate experience and some die from it. The odds are 7.1 million to 1 against winning the Virginia State Lottery Lotto game, but strangely enough, over two hundred Virginians have become millionaires. Coincidence means nothing without proof. There is no evidence of any of these conspiracies anywhere but in your mind. You haven't even provided a motive for the actions you allege. How would Freemasons benefit from blowing up a Federal building? Particularly one on land they are alleged to own, and from which they were doubtless receiving rent in such a case; no one will be paying rent on the memorial park established on the site. Sounds like a loss to me. No Federal programs or activities that were operated out of that building have been terminated. (And here's what really confuses me--if you are correct that the Federal govt. has been infiltrated by the Freemasons [whatever "infiltration" means when most judges and Senators and Congressmen make no secret of their membership and wear pins on their lapels--see today's Wash. Post for a photo of a man in Philadelphia who has his pins on], then wouldn't it be really really dumb to blow up a Federal building and kill their own people?) The only thing that frightens me about your ravings is that you perhaps are doing this to set up the grounds for an insanity defense when you really go off the deep end and start looking for Masons with a .45. The evidence in the Oklahoma City bombing is quite extensive and does not lead anywhere near a Masonic Lodge. Why don't you go over to the militia newsgroups and post your conspiracy theories, eh? Date: 10-15-96 (00:08) Number: 789 of 790 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais2.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: EA degree (was Letter "G") Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <53ukmn$d4e@news2.cais.com> Conducting business in the 3rd degree is, I have been told, a consequence of the anti-Masonic agitation in the US in the 1820s. A convention in Baltimore of a number of GLs conceived the idea and spread it around the US. Some say that we hurt Masonry by excluding our EAs and FCs from full Lodge participation by meeting only on the 3rd degree, except to confer the inferior degrees of Symbolic Masonry. They argue that these new brethren have rejection as their first Masonic experience. I prefer to say: * There is no rejection of EAs and FCs if they are properly instructed before their initiation on the process of becoming a Mason. * The US operates under a different time-scale from the European and Latin American system; we can take as little as a couple of months for a brother to reach the MM degree (as I did in 1977), if he is diligent and capable. In Europe, where becoming a Master Mason can require many years, the situation is not the same, and meeting in the EA degree is not unreasonable. * The new brother is taught the lessons of patience and diligence by being required to learn his work prior to receiving additional degrees; we also teach that work is rewarded in Masonry by advancing him early in his career. * If a brother need not pass to any other degrees to receive all the benefits of Freemasonry, why should he be motivated to do so? Just to serve as an officer? We are having a hard enough time finding officers _now_ without providing a way for new brethren to plead ineligibility. * Brethren who have not progressed beyond the EA degree have not obligated themselves in certain ways that I would consider essential for the trust of full voting rights in the Lodge to be vested in them. * As a Masonic Education Officer, I find it difficult to provide education programs that restrict themselves to only the EA degree. I'm not especially interested in Masonic history and biography; I prefer to explore the symbolism and philosophy of the degrees. I find that about 15% of my talks could be given in an EA lodge, no more. Given the length of our meetings now, I am dubious about the likelihood of a Master calling from labor to refreshment, dismissing the EAs and FCs, and calling from refreshment to labor on a different degree for an education talk of fifteen minutes, and then calling off and on again to return to business. He might find that the EAs and FCs, excluded from the talk, had gone home! Should we gut Masonic education for this change? * Finally, I seriously question the facts that are alleged to support meeting on the first degree; I do not see any significant number of EAs failing to complete their work. I've been hanging around the DC and No. Virginia area for most of a decade now, and I know of maybe one or two cases out of dozens of initiates. We heard recently about how a jurisdiction eliminated the memory work and found that it made not an iota of difference in the retention of candidates. I think that that is persuasive evidence of the irrelevance of the inability of EAs to attend meetings in candidate progression, since the initiates who required no memory work were surely able to progress to MM in only three consecutive months, during which they can't have missed much. Sorry, but I still am waiting for something in the way of proof to persuade me that I am wrong about this; I haven't seen it so far. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Master, Dawson Lodge #16, FAAM of DC Musician/Lodge Education Officer, Henry Lodge #57, AF&AM of Virginia, Fairfax Date: 10-14-96 (19:50) Number: 790 of 790 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: hypnosis@pacbell.net, EUGENE GOLDMAN · Subj: Re: New E.A. Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: His personal offices Message-ID: <3262FBDC.28F4@pacbell.net> bortigar.nightwolf@magusbooks.com wrote: > Not to really get picky here but actually have you heard of the > Christian Coalition, they are meddleing with politics, and this may > sound rude, and I'm sorry but see it as a point of one who is intruiged > but still a little wary.... If you were wrong about this then why > wouldn't and couldn't you be wrong and deliberatly misleading concerning > the rest of my question? Hm...? > Magus Online! http://www.magusbooks.com Telnet:magusbooks.com Yes, I know of them, what do they have to do with Masonry? Or are you suggesting that as they are Christians and involved in politics, is it the same with Masons. If the latter, only in so far as the Christian Coalition does NOT speak for Christianity, nor are they even representative of Christianity. Yes, there are Masons in Politics. There are also Eagle Scouts involved in politics, but this is not proof that Scouting is trying to take over the world. As far as your second question, it is not possible to disproove a negative assertion. Can you proove YOU are not trying to take over the world? Of course not. You can say that you are not, but I may or may not believe you. Fact of the matter is, I COULD be wrong. I'm not, but I could be. The only way for you to find out is for you to do your own research. Find books on and about the fraternity and read them. Ask questions. double check answers. Run a search on Freemasonry on Yahoo and visit the web pages there, particularly Grand Lodge ones. www.freemason.org is the page for the Grand Lodge of California, www.freemasonry.com is another fine one. Read the FAQs. Ask questions, but try to avoid the "Proove you are not conspirators" type. If your research is honest, in the sincere desire for knowledge, you will find (as have all who have gone before you) that we are a fraternity. Not a conspiracy, not a secret society, just a fraternity. I wish you good luck in your search. Please let me know if I may be of further assistance. -- Be well. Travel with a light heart. Gene Goldman P.·. M.·. Blackmer Lodge #442, San Diego, Ca. Black Mountain Masonic Lodge, U.·.D.·. Southern Ca. Research Lodge A.A.S.R., Valley of San Diego