| http://www.chrysalis.org/masonry/ Date: 12-02-96 (00:21) Number: 1951 of 1976 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: af@atl-intl.com, AF Subj: Original scripture says ALL could be heard: Was Re: God of t Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Interport Communications Corp. Message-ID: The following is being posted in the interest of minimizing gratuitous invidiousness. I do not much care what people believe, but as a matter of historical, literary, and religious honesty, it should be pointed out that the traditional Hebrew scriptural view was that *anyone* who sincerely desired to call upon God would succeed (see the lines, "Near is God to *all* calling Him... He hears their cry..." in Psalm 145, lines 18-19). In fact, a straightforward reading of the story of Jonah and Nineveh shows a message that Jewishness, belief, and Temple sacrifice are unnecessary, merely repentance and turning from evil (again according to Hebrew scripture). Also, in re Temple sacrifices, as a matter of history, there were two Temples, not one, with a span of some seventy years in between the destruction of the first and the construction of the second, during which time people were born, lived, and died without benefit of sacrifices, and during which time it was stated by Hebrew scripture that absent a Temple, sacrifices were not necessary to obtain forgiveness (again, consistent with previous writings). Were sacrifices to have been necessary, no one whatsoever whose life was spent entirely in those seventy years would have had any hope at all, given the inherent imperfections of humankind. Now if you want to assert that Christian scripture changed the rules, that is up to you, but please do not make false and invidious assertions about earlier religious and historical facts. Most especially, please do not make it seem that Hebrew scripture specified a world in which imperfect people were doomed regardless of their deeds or intentions, merely because they happened to be born in a time during which there was no Temple in which to sacrifice. >> [Name removed to keep personalities out of this] writes: >> >Yes I would bow and pray to the one and only God, however, their prayers >> >would neither be heard nor answered. >> > >> >I will admit that the Jew in fact trys to solicit my God, however, if >> >they do not go to the Father through Jesus Christ, their work is futile. >> >Nobody was Christian before Jesus! That's the whole point: Before Jesus >came, nobody but the Jews had access to God. They had the Scriptures, the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Please see above. For the rest, to be intellectually honest, it should be preceded by a disclaimer as follows: "Contrary to traditional Jewish belief and scriptural interpretation, Christianity (or at least the writer in question) asserts that..." >___________ In their Scriptures, they had/have prophecies which >fortell the Messiah: details of His birth, life, ministry, death, >ressurection, and the new covenant that the Messiah would consummate. >That new covenant (the New Testament) supercedes the Old Testament in >scope, privelage, and power. Now God is accessible by all peoples through >faith in His son Jesus. I have attempted to phrase my comments in as neutral a fashion as possible, consistent with known history, and have felt prompted to do so by the belief (based upon horrific historical events) that some of the assertions that had been made by other posters have been of the sort that many believe contributed to a great deal of viciousness. Baseless animosities are not constructive. Well wishes, David Date: 12-03-96 (15:02) Number: 2007 of 2009 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jgbennie@vcn.bc.ca, JIM BENNIE Subj: Re: HIDEOUS OATHS Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Vancouver Community Network, Vancouver, B.C. Message-ID: <32A4B17D.42EE@vcn.bc.ca> Reply-To: jgbennie@vcn.bc.ca Dan Sale wrote: > > I think he was refering to these.. > > "To all of which I most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear > with a firm and steadfast resolution to keep and perform the same > without the least equivocation, mental reservation of self > evasion whatsoever: binding myself under a no less penalty than > that of having my throat cut from ear to ear, my tongue torn out > by the roots and buried in the rough sands of the sea at low > water mark where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-four > hours, should I in the least knowingly or willfully violate or > transgress this my entered apprentice obligation. So help me God > and keep me steadfast." (rest of alleged Masonic ritual deleted) I can tell you, Danny, in all honesty, that I did not repeat the above paragraph in any Masonic Lodge or at any Masonic meeting. Nor the other two which I have snipped (snipped because they are not germaine to my point). Where does it say in this paragraph that this is the penalty inflicted on a Mason? It doesn't. In fact, a Mason is told to obey the laws of the country of which he resides.. and not to countenance anyone to disobey the law. It seems to me such a "penalty" would be against the law of the country, would it not?? What this paragraph says is.. "Under no less a penalty.." ^^^^^^^ So, what *is* the penalty that is inflicted on members who violate their obligations to be good citisens, devout in their faiths, assist the needy and faithful to their promises?? Danny, why don't you quote the answer to *that* question? It's found in just about any Grand Lodge Book of Constitutions (or Code or some other such terminology). The penalty, at least in BC, is reprimand, suspension or explusion from Freemasonry. The penalty is not slicing throats or tongues or toenails or anything else.. and it never has been. And it isn't in any Masonic jurisdiction I am acquainted with. What you have quoted above is symbolism.. that one would rather suffer a horrible punishment than be false to their promises. It doesn't say that they will suffer *that* punishment. That's because they won't. And haven't. Jim Bennie PM WM Lodge Southern Cross #44 Vancouver BC Date: 12-03-96 (19:57) Number: 2025 of 2078 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: ypipe@aol.com, YPIPE Subj: recognition. Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19961203195800.OAA12545@ladder01.news.aol.com> i was asked to repost this to the newsgroup peace to all Dateline Nov. 16 1996, 1030 AM. At the historic Scottish Rite temple in Sante Fe, The Most Worshipful Omer E. Horn open the Most Worshipful Grand Lodge, A.F.&A.M. of New Mexico ( http://204.134.124.1:80/leon/gl.htm ) in due and ample form on the 3rd degree. Past Grand Masters present were introduced and invited to give comment. The Heads of the appendant rites were then introduced and also invited to comment. At this time the lodge was turned over to Mt. Everest Lodge #1 F.&A.M. PHA of New Mexico who opened an occasional lodge on the 3rd degree. The Grand lodge officers of the Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge F.&A.M. (minus the GM) were invited to the altar and the lodge was turned over to the Deputy Grand Master. He invited the Most Worshipful Grand Master Harold H. Bendaw to enter the Lodge and installed (I do not have another word for this, Bro. Crawford or Bro. Hunt?) him as the Master of the Lodge. After declaring the Grand Lodge open in due and ample form The Past Grand Masters of the PH Grand Lodge were introduced and also spoke. The Heads of Houses for the PH Grand Jurisdiction followed suite. At this point the officers of the Grand Lodge of NM A.F.&A.M. joined their counterparts at the respective stations. The only order of business before the lodges was the signing of a compact allowing affiliation and visitation among the lodges of both jurisdictions. This Business was completed with dispatch, save the flash of cameras. Both Grand Lodges were close in record time so that all brothers could go upstairs and have lunch together. This is a very short version of what happened and does not do justice to the event. The Scottish rite temple in Sante Fe was built in 1912, based on the detail of the Court of Lions in the Alhambra at Granda. It is, or was, the only purely Moorish style building in the US. The weather was crisp and overcast as the brethren started to gather. Breakfast for all was hosted at Montezuma Lodge #1 just across the parking lot. All three groups of lodge officers were putting on their regalia and conversing with each other as brothers from each lodge greeted each other and members they knew from the other jurisdiction. Attendance was good. The floor and parts of the balcony were full. The Choir opened with the song Open the Gates of the Temple As the sun came out from behind the clouds and illuminated the Stained class windows, the Grand Lodge of New Mexico A.F.&A.M. opened by the MW Omer E. Horn. The Grand Secretaries of both Jurisdictions sitting at their station. 7 Past Grand Masters were present, along with the SGIG of the State of New Mexico and the Potentate of the Shrine. as soon as the opening was over the officers from Mt. Everest Lodge #1 F.&A.M. PHA march to the floor and took their stations. The differences in ritual were sparse and were more in line with the A.F.&A.M and F.&A.M distinctions than PHA/GL distinctions according to one of the brothers sitting with me. The Master of #1 required the JD to escort the DGM and his officers to the altar where they were introduced. The sitting Master then turned over the symbols of authority to the DGM. Once he was installed? he invited the MW Grand Master Harold H. Bendaw into the lodge and invested him with the gavel and hat. All morning the sun was playing hide and seek in the clouds but always seemed to come out at appropriate times and this was one. 5 past masters of this Grand lodge were introduced along with the heads of houses. I did not remember the actual titles (sorry) but they represented the Knights of Pythius(sp), the RAM, the Scottish Rite, the Shrine, the Knights Templar and one that did not mention his house name. Both Grand Masters then left the east and moved to a table set up between the altar and the SW. There they signed the compact that would allow Masons to talk about things Masonic with other Masons. This was to the blinding wall of flashes going off as the brethren of both jurisdictions captured the event. The process was repeated by the Grand Secretaries and everyone retired to their seats for the rest of lodge. We were then addressed by ill. Bro Ernest Hazelwood, PGM and IGH, who told how he and the then WM(I did not get the Name, and cannot find it any where in my mail box) and now GS, also PGM and IGH, Met at the commissary 20 years ago and started this process. Masonry may not change fast but it changes. MW Bendaw then closed the GL of NM PHA followed by MW Horn who closed the GL NM and invited everyone to lunch in the dining room. I met many Masons from around the state , in both jurisdictions, and had a very enlightening time yours in a bigger craft Scott Date: 12-04-96 (00:44) Number: 2037 of 2078 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: mtavy@mail.zynet.co.uk, GERRY SARGENT Subj: Re: Too young to be a Mason??? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: If only there were......! Message-ID: <32A539F3.189A@mail.zynet.co.uk> Reply-To: mtavy@mail.zynet.co.uk Mick Cole (London - UK) wrote: > > dowen@enterprise.ca (Doug) wrote: > > >On Sun, 13 Oct 96 18:51:35 GMT, paul@anomaly.softnet.co.uk scribbled: > > >->I am 24 and have been told I am a bit too young to be a Mason, I > >would > >->appreciate any comments on this. > >-> > >->Paul G > >-> > >->paul@anomaly.softnet.co.uk > >-> > > >Your not to young, 21 years is the only age restriction (in most > >areas). > > I rather think that Doug has been told that although technically he > could become a Freemason he probably wouldn't get as much from it > until he is a little older. This is obviously a personal thing. I > personaly haven't met many 21 year olds who would have been ready to > join Freemasonry at 21, including myself! > > I waited until 29 until joining. I think that this was a good time for > me, although I still felt quite young! > > At the end of the day it is personal to you. Take advice from the > people who will propose and second you. They will be best placed to > judge when you are ready. > > Good Luck! > > Mick. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > With all its shame, drudgery and broken dreams, > it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful, > Strive to be happy. > ======================================================= > Mick.Cole@Cityscape.co.uk > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi Mike, I've included the full mail so that people will know what its all about! Hope you don't object. There may be many reasons why someone suggests that perhaps you are too young. Maybe they see you with a girlfriend, wife or children who they consider should perhaps have your time rather than the Lodge! Maybe they feel that it is too expensive for you at the moment but don't want to embarrass you by saying so! They may also be testing you to see how determined you are to become a Freemason! Freemasonry isn't just joining a club. It does put demands on your time if you are to be of benefit to others. You would need to go to practise nights, instruction nights as well as attend a couple of social functions a year as well. Ususally chaps of your age are out busy sowing their oats and peer pressure, football, fishing or girls or whatever can prove a stronger pull than the Lodge - especially on cold, wet winter nights. Certainly as you get older, have sown the wild oats, settled down a bit and proved that you have a hankering for more - dare I say it - mature - pursuits then the old Freemasons Lodge probably is the place for you. Having said all that, if you still want to join DON'T BE PUT OFF - try, try and try again;-) There's nothing better than a fellow of whatever age who really wants to be in our company and holds to the same values and aims. Besides it saves a lot of us older b*****s from doing all the work:-)) Sincere best wishes in your search for light. I'm sure it will be to your best advantage whatever happens. Gerry Sargent.MM. Bedford 282 UGLE. Date: 12-05-96 (18:32) Number: 2038 of 2078 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jsteinbach@triax.com, JOHN STEINBACH Subj: Re: MM Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Message-ID: <32A785CE.1A76@triax.com> Reply-To: jsteinbach@triax.com Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Tim wrote: > > I've heard that no harm is to come to ones receiveing the degrees, but in > the master mason degree, the candidate is hit in the throat, the chest and > worst of all, on the forehead with a maul! Now I know they are probably > told not to hit hard, but since the nature of the act is supposed to be > violent, it would be easy to get out of hand. In fact, I've heard of cases > where the candidate has been knocked unconscience. This sounds pretty scary > to me. > > T. Pendleton Tim, And they make you ride a goat around the room naked also -- !NOT! I am a MM and don't recall any such thing. I Thoroghly enjoyed the degrees and learned a lot. I was fortute to have had my degree and then travelled to a neighboring lodge the next week and this helped with learning and understanding what was said to me on my third degree. The only thing that you might hurt is a few neurons from trying to learn all the information that is presented to you in one meeting. Why do you think Masonic brothers trust each other so much? (Hint - you trust them during the degrees.) Enjoy and Learn John Steinbach MM Chewelah Lodge #135, Chewelah, WA. ABG Bethel #13 Colville Date: 12-06-96 (10:37) Number: 2054 of 2078 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: ness2@crocker.com, MARIE PAIGE Subj: Diabetes and Amaranth (Repost) Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: New England Software Svcs, Inc. Message-ID: <588t0d$thc@news.crocker.com> I thank all of you who've sent messages concerning this post - there have been MANY. Most are from people who are diabetics, but had no idea what Amaranth is about. Again, thank you very much - I'm grateful that our word is getting around. Whether or not you're interested in the Order of the Amaranth, this information about Diabetes is at least interesting and at best, eye-opening. I'm proud to report that in the term 1995-1996, Amaranth members raised and contributed $385,000. to the American Diabetes Association. Our goal for the term 1996-1997 is $400,000.00. ************************************************************** A PERSONAL MESSAGE TO ALL TAKING TIME TO READ THIS: Thanks to Sir Knight Marvin Butts of the Jurisdiction of Connecticut for assisting me in this and attaining all the following updated information, (Thanx, "Dad"). This is a subject very close to my heart, not only because I am a proud member of the Order of the Amaranth, but also because there are many in my family with diabetes. My husband Brian has been a brittle diabetic for over 20 years. We met through Amaranth and the year before we started dating, he received a kidney transplant. The donor was his father. It was quite ironic... this was during his year as Grand Royal Patron of the Order of the Amaranth, Commonwealth of Massachusetts. When his year as Grand Royal Patron was through and he was stepping down, it was only fitting that his father present him with his jewel. There wasn't a dry eye in the house! It has now been almost 6 years, and Brian's health is as excellent as it can be after all he's been through. He now leads a normal life, with minimal interferance (compared to before the transplant) from diabetes. My grateful thanks go to the American Diabetes Association and Amaranth members worlwide for all the good work and important research. I feel that being a member of the Amaranth and working for this goal has not only improved my husband's life, but mine as well. It gives us the feeling of at least a LITTLE control over this awful disease. Brian and I were friends for years and started dating 4 months after the surgery. We were married two and a half years later. I feared we couldn't have children of our own, but we were blessed yet again. We now have a beautiful, healthy, lighthearted 1+ year old son Brandon, who would have never existed were it not for the work of the American Diabetes Assoc. and Amaranth Diabetes Foundation. Curiously enough, the day our son Brandon was born in one hospital, my father (also a diabetic) was in another having amputative surgery due to diabetes. Originally, it was thought he'd lose up to half of his leg, but thanks to God and the miracles of modern medicine yet again, he only lost one toe. He continues to recover very well, I don't think I've ever seen him look this good before... Dad turned 72 in June of '96. My husband's life, my father's and lives around us are blessed each day by the improvements being made, and there are countless others like us. THANK YOU again, for your time and attention. Please share the work we do with others... We ALL have the close bond of fraternity, regardless of the order we belong to. Though our benevolences and charities may differ, we all work for the same goal - that of making a better life for those in need, and a disease-free world for those who have yet to be born. If you'd like more information on our activities with Diabetes, please email me with your requests. Fraternally, Marie L. Paige Grand Associate Matron of the Order of the Amaranth, Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and Past Matron of Doric Chapter No. 7, Order of the Eastern Star (Northampton, MA) ************************************************************** The following is typed from a brochure from the American Diabetes Association - in regards to Diabetes research and Amaranth-supported awards and grants: "WE THOUGHT YOU'D LIKE TO KNOW WHAT DIABETES IS DOING TO THIS COUNTRY / The Order of the Amaranth, Inc." WHAT IS DIABETES ?: Diabetes is a serious health problem. It affects nearly 14 million americans. Half of them don't even know they have it. And, there is no cure. Your body needs energy for everything you do, from running to sleeping. Diabetes affects the way your body turns food into energy. Normally, your body changes sugars, starches and other foods you eat into "fuel". In diabetes, something goes wrong with this process. This affects all parts of the body. It can lead to blindness, heart disease, kidney failure, nerve and blood vessel damage. In the five minutes it will take you to read this message, six people in the United States will learn they have diabetes. This is almost 2,000 people a day. It is estimated that almost 20% of adults over age 55 have diabetes. And, with its complications, diabetes is truly one of the worst diseases of our time. HOW THE ORDER OF THE AMARANTH HELPS FIGHT DIABETES: The Order of the Amaranth has mobilized the efforts of its membership to find a cure for diabetes and to improve the lives of all people affected by diabetes. In 17, the Amaranth Diabetes Association was formally adopted and diabetes became the primary philanthropic project through which the Order of the Amaranth worked for the betterment of mankind. Thanks to the dedicated support of our members worldwide, the Order of the Amaranth has raised $2.25 million in the fight against diabetes. All funds raised by the Order of the Amaranth go DIRECTLY for diabetes research through the Amaranth Diabetes Foundation; there are no fundraising or management costs. The American Diabetes Association reviews and selects the research scientists to be funded. Through this system, contributors are assured that their gifts support the most important diabetes research and that the research results are shared throughout the scientific community. 1994-1995 Order of the Amaranth-Supported RESEARCH AWARDS AND GRANTS: At our 98th Annual Assembly in Decatur, IL, the Order of the Amaranth provided funds for diabetes research: EDWIN G. KREBS, MD - University of Washington Mentor-Based Postdoctural Fellowship: Grant $89,900. This award supports the training of a postdoctural fellow, Jean S. Campbell, PhD, by an established diabetes investigator. Basic research is critical to the understanding of any disease process. Dr. Campbell and her mentor, Dr. Edwin G. Krebs are investigating the basic molecular mechanisms by which growth factors, such as insulin, trnasmit their signals throughout the cell to regulate a variety of cellular activities. Thier research has the potential to provide the foundation for devising new treatments or even developing a cure for diabetes by providing essential information about how insulin functions at the cellular level. DR. KREBS IS THE RECIPIENT OF THE 1992 NOBEL PRIZE in Medicine. B.S. KASINATH, MD - University of Texas Health Center Research Award: Grant $96,200. "Glomerular Epithelial Cell Metabolism in Diabetes Mellitus". Kidney disease is a devastating complication of diabetes. Dr. Kasinath is examining exactly how and why the kidneys are damaged by diabetes. He is looking at the body's production of a special type of protien, called heparan sulfate proteoglycan (HSPG). If Dr. Kasinath is able to determine why less HSPG is produced in diabetes, it may be possible to develop methods to increase the production of this protien and prevent kidney damage in diabetes. CHARLOTTE L. SHUPERT, PhD Good Samaritan Hosp. & Medical Center - Portland, OR Research Award: Grant $99,883 "Improving Imbalance in Patients with Diabetic Neuropathy". Many individuals with neuropathy are faced with the fear of falling, loss of independence and possible life-threatening falls due to loss of sensation in their feet and lower limbs. The goal of Dr. Shupert's research is to improve the quality of life for those who suffer from peripheral neuropathy by determining whether the use of a cane can compensate for the loss of balance in individuals with neuropathy. MESSAGE of the PRESIDENT: Life gives all of us challenges in which we must either accept or reject. The members of the Order of the Amaranth have chosen to accept the fight against diabetes and each of them have performed magnificently. They have given more and done more in the fight. Let them continue in the path they have taken - to find a cure for Diabetes. AMARANTH FIGHTS DIABETES! Now to share with you some of the latest scientific advancements that their efforts have made possible, and that will one day pave the way for an end to this disease. American Diabetes Association-supported researchers have developed a model glucose sensor that measures blood glucose through the finger-noninvasively. In other words, by shining a laser beam of infrared light into the finger and then measuring how much light is absorbed, the scientists can actually measure blood sugar levels in the beam's path. One day, this technique will make the finger prick test a thing of the past, and end the need for a person with diabetes to draw blood. Researchers are working to pinpoint which genes may make someone more at risk for developing diabetes. Much progress has already been made in locating the genes that may be responsible for increasing the chance of developing Type I Diabetes. And scientists are delving into the mysteries of how defective genes may make people at risk for Type II diabetes as well. Diabeted research has already given rise to easier, more effective ways for people to manage their disease at home. New drugs for controlling high blood sugar, new drugs for treating and preventing diabetes complications such as blood-vessel or kidney disease, and improved methods of insulin delivery, all give more independence to those with diabetes. "If you've supported the Amaranth Diabetes Foundation in the past I want to thank you and encourage you to continue. If you're just reading about it for the first time, you are invited to join us in the fight. Working together, members of the Amaranth will help find a cure and put an end to Diabetes, hopefully in this decade." Lester Tolland, President Amaranth Diabetes Foundation DIABETES - HOW YOU CAN HELP: SUPPORT Amaranth Diabetes Foundation. Funds raised through the Foundation go directly to diabetes research; there are no fundrasing costs. PLEASE SHARE this brochure (information) with others. It highlights how the Order of the Amaranth is helping in the fight against diabetes. If someone is not yet a member, indicate that this is an example of how the Order of the Amaranth provides service to mankind. IF YOU KNOW SOMEONE WITH DIABETES, please ask them to call the local office of the American Diabetes Association. The American Diabetes Association is there to help. IF YOU WOULD LIKE to receive additional copies of this brochure or any additional information about diabetes, contact the American Diabetes Association at 1-800-232-3472 (Ext. 278) and indicate you are calling from the Order of the Amaranth. Date: 12-08-96 (02:55) Number: 2100 of 2105 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jwintermute@ids2.idsonline.com, JANET & JOHN WINTERMUTE Subj: Re: Masonry and Wicca Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <58dbfp$fgd@news2.cais.com> "Sandra K. Sartor-Gordon" wrote: >Can you tell me why women aren't allowed to be masons? That is the only thin g that >truly bothers me about the Freemasons. Any religion, any color, any >political affiliation BUT you must be male. I am aware that there have been f emale >masons, in the minority but very definitely there! Do you not believe that >a woman cannot be a fine upstanding moral person? The first time I heard >of Masons, it was familiar like I had done it before. Oh well, no-one will >touch that question with a ten foot pole! May your days be filled with >Light and Love. Sandy Hello, Sandy. There *are* women masons, but most of them live in Europe. In Britain, 60,000 women are members of five all-female obediences. France is home to the Grand Loge Feminine de France (all-female) and headquarters of the international mixed-masonry obedience called Le Droit Humain. Belgium has the Grand Loge Feminine de Belgique. Here in the United States, women can become masons through the GLFB's lodge in New York City. Or they can join Le Droit Humain in several different cities. DH has undergone a schism recently, and some of its former lodges now are incorporated as the American Federation for Human Rights. Finally, a new mixed obedience, the George Washington Masonic Union, just invested its third lodge in this country, Liberty Lodge #3, in Washington, DC. (Their #1 lodge is in NYC, and I don't know where #2 is.) All these obediences are using normal masonic rituals with the exeption of the exclusion of women from membership. They tend to follow the Scottish Rite (i.e., they are *French* in origin and work degrees 1-3 the same as Craft-lodge [mail mainstream] masonry plus the degrees 4-33 of the Scottish Rite). For more info on mixed masonry (which is called Co-Masonry) and women's masonry, visit the masonic homepage of Catherine Yronwode at http://www.luckymojo.com/CoMasonry.html --Janet Wintermute Date: 12-05-96 (23:07) Number: 2107 of 2132 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: eakerg@dtx.net, GARY Subj: Re: OATH Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: DataExchange Internet Services Message-ID: Reply-To: eakerg@dtx.net > > CAN SOMEONE QUOTE THE FIRST THREE OATHS TO ME. FOR SOME REASON I SEAM > TO BE WRONG ABOUT THE OATHS FROM WHAT I AM TOLD. As secretive as the Mason's are, they really aren't all that secret. They have been published time and time again. You can probably find them in your local library. 1st oath: I, ______, of my own free will and accord in presence of Almighty God and this right worshipful Lodge erected to Him and dedicated to the Holy Saints John, do hereby and hereon, do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear I will always hail, forever conceal and never reveal any of the secret arts, parts or points of the mysteries of Freemasonry which have been, may now or shall hereafter be communicated to me in Charge as such, to any person in the world, except it be to a true and lawful brother free Mason, or in a legally constituted lodge of ancient free and accepted Masons, and not unto him nor them therein until after due trial, strict examination or lawful information, I shall have found them legally entitled to receive the same. I, furthermore promise and swear that I will not write, indite, print, paint, stamp, stain, cut, carve, mark or engrave the same upon anything moveable or immoveable under the canopy of heaven, whereby the least word, syllable, letter or character thereof may become legible to myself or intelligible to others, and the secrets of Freemasonry be unlawfully obtained, and that through my unworthiness. To all of which I solemnly and sincerely promise and swear to keep and perform the same, without any equivocation, mental reservation or secret evasion of mind in me whatever, binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having my throat cut from ear to ear, my tongue torn out by its roots, and with my body buried in the rough sands of the sea, a cable's length from shore, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-four hours, should I ever knowingly or willingly violate this, my most solemn obligation as an entered apprentice, so help me God and keep me steadfast in the due performance of the same. 2nd oath: I,_______, of my own free will and accord, in presence of Almighty God, and this right worshipful lodge erected to Him, and dedicated to the Holy Saints John, do hereby and hereon, solemnly and sincerely, promise and swear, I will always hail, forever conceal, and never reveal, any of the secret arts, parts or points, of the mysteries of the Fellowcraft degree, which have been, may now, or shall hereafter be, communicated to me, in charge as such, to any person in the world, except it be, to a true and lawful brother Fellowcraft, and not unto him, nor them therein, until after due trial, strict examination or lawful information, I shall have found them legally entitled to receive the same. I furthermore promise and swear, that I will not wrong a brother Fellowcraft. To all of which, I solemnly and sincerely may be a member. I furthermore promise and swear, to keep and perform the same, without any equivocation, mental reservation or secret evasion of mind in me whatever, binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having my left breast torn open, my heart plucked out, and with my body left to the vultures of the air, should I ever knowingly or willingly, violate this, my most solemn obligation, as a Fellowcraft, so help me God, and keep me steadfast, in the due performance of the same. 3rd oath: I don't have a full copy of the 3rd oath on hand, but like the first two, it is basically the same up to the death part. Then it picks up, "Binding myself under no less penalty than that having my body severed in twain, my bowels taken from thence and burned to ashes, and scattered before the four winds of heaven ..." All this information is in many forms of print. The book I used was released by a former Worshipful Master, Jack Harris. Check your library or a Bible book store and you can find just about anything you want to know. Oh, don't bother asking a Mason, they are sworn to secrecy. Gary eakerg@dtx.net Date: 12-09-96 (04:39) Number: 2134 of 2163 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: ORAC@sprynet.com, ORAC Subj: Masonry and Wicca? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sprynet News Service Message-ID: <32ABDE2F.6F7C@sprynet.com> Reply-To: ORAC@sprynet.com I am Wiccan, and also have a serious interest in Masonry. I am familiar with most of the "public" aspects of Masonry and can say with absolute confidence that there is no "conspiratorial connection" between us. Wicca is not a secret society or even a religion so much as a way of life and a way of relating to God. All aspects of the Craft are in the public domain, from the most mundane rites to the most spectacular. There are no secrets on our part. Wiccans have only one "rule" or "commandment" which is this: "An' it harm none, do what thou wilt." In this sense there is a similarity to Masonry if only in the fact that both strive to do only good and bring the individual and the community closer to God and thus nearer to perfection. To accomplish this, both groups draw largely upon the same body of knowledge and are bound to find much common ground because of this fact alone. The only thing that really disturbs me is that both groups are percieved by and large as "evil" or "wrong" by so many groups simply because we seek all the truth that is out there ... and are not necessarily content with what knowledge we inherit from the Bible alone. A word about belief systems ... Many Wiccans (not all or even most, but many) are of this school of thought: God is infinite, He is a part of everything because everything is part of Him, and sprung from Him. We, as mere mortals, cannot possibly hope to completely understand Him on this Earth because our lives and experiences and mental capacities are finite. So we must know God through what He has shared with us. This is in the form of words and teachings (e.g. the Bible) but also everywhere else ... in nature and science for instance to name only two. God Himself is constantly trying to reach us, but we are more often than not too caught up in our own lives to hear Him. Every now and then, though, someone listens and tries to understand. This person, being a man, can't possibly hope to get it all right (it's like explaining to your mother-in-law how to program her VCR to record her soaps and expecting her to get it right the first time). So the man picks up what he can and a religion is formed. It contains a kernel of truth, but not the whole truth. Soon the real truth is buried in superstition and dogma ... This is where Yeshua fits in. He was like a last-ditch attempt to get God's word through our thick skulls. Being half-man and half-God, he could (theoretically, at least) understand both sides of the situation. But it is clear he didn't always understand what God wanted exactly, though he never doubted the result. He was also never able to completely teach his discpiles exactly what he knew either. Imagine having a man who speaks only Russian, a man who speaks Russian and Japanese, and a man who speaks only Japanese. Think about how hard it would be for the middle man to convey the exact words, thoughts and ideas of the man who spoke only Russian to the Japanese guy and vice versa. Sooner or later something is going to get lost in the translation. But the more perfect the translator is, the better the translation will be. But it is still only a translation. Well Yeshua was as close to a perfect translator as we shall ever have, and the basic tenets of Christianity are as close to a mirror of what God wants as we are likely to get. This we have in common. But the break-off occurs in the fact that Masons seek better understanding through a closer examination of Yeshua and the prophets and kings and canonical Judeao-Christianity, while Wiccans do this too but also seek to understand Buddhism, Shinto, etc. We believe there is a mighty wheel, wherin God is like the hub and each religion (OK, not all religions, but Satanism is not a religion .. it's more an anti-religion) is one of the spokes. If you follow one spoke, one path, you will get to God, but maybe only the side of Him that is facing you. To truly understand Him (many of us believe), each person standing at the rim of the wheel must reach out and grab the hand of the person next to them. Understand them, love them, explore their beliefs and find that kernel of truth that lies at the heart of it. If everyone did that, we would still not know God completely, but we would be closer to Him together than we could ever come on our own. We would not walk down a straight line individually, but rather move together in an ever-closing circle ... each step forward as a group bring us closer to each other and closer to God. Well, now you know more than you ever wanted to about Wicca and our "dangerous" ideas, but if we are going to be damned anyway, it is better to be damned for what we really are, don't you think? Perhaps this helps to clear up this matter. Perhaps it only winds up crashing some servers because it is so long (sorry!). But also perhaps it can serve to open up some sort of dialogue between us and allow us to grow closer to God together. Please feel free to share your thoughts with me. Date: 12-09-96 (09:12) Number: 2135 of 2163 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: vicp@sprintlink.co.za, VIC PUGH Subj: Re: Free-mason Alphabet : help wanted Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Grinaker Civils Engineering Inland Message-ID: <01bbe5b1$15bcfde0$725830ce@vicp.sprintlink.co.za> Gerry, are you saying you dont know, or ITS A SECRET !!!. If the latter plse explain...that code has also been used by the Boy Scouts for YEARS. Also Mark Master Masons use it in some Lodges to deliniate their mark, but it is not refered to in any working that I know of except generically in the First.."write, carve etc.. UGLE has embarked on a more open approach, even reciting certain parts of the ritual to non masons. Fraternal Greetings Vic Pugh PM, JHB, South Africa -- Vic Pugh Grinaker Civils,JHB,RSA +27 11 828 8915 tel vicp@sprintlink.co.za Gerry Sargent wrote in article <32A8EE3C.16DA@mail.zynet.co.uk>... > Manu Ars wrote: > > > > I received some information which has been written using the > > free-mason alphabet. However, I don't know it nor its origins. > > > > Could some one help me traducing these _| |_ letters ? > > > > Thanks for your help, please Email-me aswers. > > > > `8^7- Manu > > > > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ > > _/ Work 33 (0)1 41 28 41 85 Fax 33 (0)1 41 28 45 97 _/ > > _/ Home 33 (0)1 46 30 74 07 mailto:Manu.Ars@ci.sligos.fr _/ > > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ > > > Sorry friend. NO! > Gerry Sargent. MMM. Russell 23. UGLE > Date: 12-09-96 (09:38) Number: 2137 of 2163 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: pedrotti@slip.net, PETER PEDROTTI Subj: Re: Original scripture says ALL could be heard: Was Re: God Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Slip.Net Message-ID: <32add6f1.35161685@news.slip.net> On Mon, 9 Dec 1996 02:40:58 UNDEFINED, af@atl-intl.com wrote: > This is posted with a certain degree of horror. > If I am somehow misunderstanding the logic of that post, please >let me know the flaw(s) in my reasoning, as I would like to believe that the >poster did not really mean the things that appear to flow from his words. > > Hoping that the previous posting was not as appalling as it seems, > and with well wishes for all people of good will, > David David, Your puzzlement puzzles me. I'm surprised you haven't heard a lot of this sort of stuff. Masses of people believe this guano and can (mis)quote reams of Scripture to support it. The notion that all mankind are inherently evil, and redeemable only by the strongest exertions of the priesthood, has always had a wide credibility among clinically depressed people. It is one of the magical discoveries of clergy from time immemorial that they can get away with preaching some form of "original sin" to automatically qualify the faithful for needing their services. The victims, not realizing that a little Prozac might make the idea a little less believable, line up in rows to chant "mea culpa" and cough up a fine livelihood for the preachers. No MBA program teaches such a successful approach to marketing: convince the customer he has a fictitious possession that he does not deserve and then extort protection money from him lest a fictitious thief steal it. No actual business partners to share the loot, no overhead, no manufacturing costs, staggering margins, great market share. It's really why the Creationist goofs are opposed to Natural Selection; it makes our lots in life derive from circumstances and chance, rather than from a cosmic prenatal indictment. People who shrug and say "so mote it be" are less susceptible to their blandishment than those who can be persuaded to think that the Great Architect of the Universe could be so petty as to delight in torturing miniature hairless, clawless apes for inherent flaws they cannot change. We should all beware anyone who wants to do something to us for our own good. Peter Pedrotti, PM Oakland, CA USA Date: 12-08-96 (22:45) Number: 2138 of 2163 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: lmccray@earthlink.net (Reply-To: mail.earthlink.net), LAVEL MCCRAY Subj: Re: Serious Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry,alt.masonic.members,alt.masonic.youth Organization: Earthlink Network, Inc. Message-ID: <32ABB59A.3C02@earthlink.net> Reply-To: mail.earthlink.net frank malinowski wrote: > > Here, here! > Couldn't agree more. I think a lot of regular masons follow the > discussions but, like me, just don't have anything to say to some of the > posters who forgot their valium that morning. > Frank Malinowski > Pasadena 272 > In article <57i4gu$pai@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, mr_ski@prairienet.org (Mitch > Duszynski) wrote: > > > Kevin K. O'Dell (kodell@dmrtc.net) wrote: > > > > : is anybody a serious mason in this group > > > > There are still a few of us left. I for one wait until there is a title > > worth responding to. I just do not have the time to read the junk some > > people post, not only here but on other newsgroups as well. I am > > getting good at setting KILL files to help filter out some of the > > garbage. > > > > Do not let the dribble you read from a few make up your mind of the many. > > z There are a lot of us around who take our Masonic Heritage seriously > > and are proud enough to not soil the repuation by responding in like > > manners to some of the moronic messages left by the uninformed. Greetings, There are still a few of us left out there. I just wonder where the ones who write the anti-masonic posts, where do they get their energy? I think that using 50% of that energy towards fundraising for the needy, volunteering for the burn center at the Shirners Hospital, volunteering for the holidays. This country is facing an economic and social crisis and suicide rates are at an all time high. Maybe they can council them. Be Well and Travel With A Light Heart !!! Bro. L. McCray, 32 New Jerusalem #90 Oakland, CA Date: 12-08-96 (14:38) Number: 2139 of 2163 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: dixie@bd.edu.amu.se, KARL-GUNNAR HULTLAND Subj: Re: Questions Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Message-ID: <32AAC4E5.71AF@bd.edu.amu.se> dagsan@pacbell.net wrote: > > Hello, gentlemen! > > I have been reading your newsgroup with fascination, having spent much of > my lifetime being indoctrinated-against-but-fascinated-by Freemasonry. I > think my father's parents (long deceased) were Freemasons, as well as > (maybe) a couple of uncles and aunts. > The problem arose during WWII, when my father converted to > Catholicism in order to marry my mother. He was taught that the "Masons" > were evil, that to consort with them was to invite excommunication, that > they excluded Catholics, Jews & Blacks ... in short, that they were a > form of a kind of Nazi-ism, but much more secretive. Part of the problem > was the "secrecy." > I have been a "seeker" most of my adult life. Although raised a > strict Catholic, I have serious problems with that dogma and have > rejected every absolute dogma I have investigated. Humanity seems to > corrupt divinity, so I have a problem with every "organized religion" > that has been devised. Yet, oddly enough, I seek a strong spiritual > foundation. > > My chief questions are: > > 1. WHY does the Catholic Church CONDEMN Freemasonry and all of > its members? As I am no expert in the Catholic Church I can only speculate over the causes of their condemnation. I think that the Church saw the humane masonry spreading in France and Italy as a threat to its own power. Also the Church might have realised that it was a group outside of its control, and thus something suspicious. > 2. Am I right in noting that there seems to be an assimilation > of Eastern philosophies/religions in Freemasonry? Many of the symbols used in Masonry are borrowed from the past history of mankind and some have previously been in use in so called Eastern religions. Among those religions we borrowed words and symbols from is Christianity, the ties to Christianity are quite strong and if one looks at Masonry where I live (Sweden) we even demand that the people joining us to be Christian. (And we do have even Catholic members here) > 3. If you are only a charitable/fraternal organization, then why > all the "secret rites?" The only things we keep secret is the 'ritual' when a person is receiving a new degree. The ceremonies includes questions, tests and lots of symbolism. The main reason for us to keep quiet exactly what happens is to not spoil the experience for future candidates. How valuable would you consider a test, that is the same every time taken, and where you could get the questions (and answers) in any book mentioning the subject? For me such a test would have zero value, and I personally wouldn't have enjoyed my initiation in masonry as much if I had known what would happen. > 4. I have noted that your members are all male. Is this > coincidence, or is your membership restricted? > We have a restricted membership, here in Sweden the restrictions are as follows: 1) Must be Christian 2) Must be Male 3) Must be 24 years or older and 4) must have two sponsors vouching for you In other jurisdictions requirement 1 is changed to state that you must have a belief in a supreme beeing, and the belief of the immortality of the soul. (Allowing Jews, Moslems and some others to join) Now you can ask (as many do ask) why we only allow Men inside our fraternity, in my opinion the most important reason is old traditions. But then on the other hand there exists (atleast here in Sweden) orders exclusively for women, organisations where I can't join because I am a man. And if one is to take the Catholic Church as an example, why don't they allow women to serve as priests? regards Karl-Gunnar Hultland II (FC), Ultima Thule, Luleå, Sweden. Date: 12-09-96 (16:52) Number: 2146 of 2163 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: martin.green@chbs.mhs.ciba.com Subj: Re: Illuminati/Freemasons behind OJ murders! Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.illuminati,alt.freemasonry,alt.conspiracy Message-ID: <32AC43CB.52F9@chbs.mhs.ciba.com> Organization: ciba Dan Sale wrote: > > >those positions. If your basis in fact for these other claims are any > >where near as flawed, please do not call them fact. Speculation yes, > >but not fact. > > The Knights of Malta all carry diplomatic passes which exempt them > from the laws of all nations and clear them from undergoing customs > checks. The degree of Knight of Malta is one of the highest degrees of > Freemasonry and is endowed in the U.S. as an appendant order in a > Commandery of Knights Templar. There is a ritual fastened to the > degree, but few hold the secrets of it. It is bestowed after the > candidate has been made a Knights Templar. The Knights Templar survive > both as a portion of the Illuminati and a degree within Freemasonry. > They are hiding the robe of Jesus, the Holy Grail, pieces of the Cross > of Crucifixion and someone's bones from the world. I know the > location. The Knights of Malta are the army of the Pope, and are sworn > to absolute compliance by a blood oath which is taken to the death. > The Pope, as the head of the Vatican, is also the head of a foreign > national power. This has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic > religion, and everything to do with being a contestant in one of the > four major "player-organizations" for world authority -- those > contestants being British Freemasonry, French Freemasonry, > International Zionism, and the Vatican. As a member of the Knights of > Malta, and by virtue of blood oath of compliance to the Pope, it is > obligated to uphold to the death the requests of the head of the Order > of the Knights of Malta -- Pope John Paul II -- over and above any > other allegience you may feel or pretend to feel toward any other > devotion -- such as a loyalty to the Constitution for the United > States of America. Those who are presently members of the Knights of > Malta must on punishment of death uphold those policies advocated by > the Vatican. The polices which are espoused and proclaimed by Pope > John Paul II are as follows: > > 1. End of sovereignty for the United States and other countries. > 2. End of absolute property rights. > 3. End of all gun rights. > 4. The new international economic Order (world government). > 5. The redistribution of wealth and jobs. > 6. Calls for nations to trust the United Nations. > 7. Total disarmament. > 8. Promote the United Nations as the hope for peace. > 9. Promote UNESCO, the deadly educational and cultural arm of the > United > Nations. > 10. Promote interdependence. > 11. Support sanctions honoring Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin -- > the New Age Humanist Priest. > 12. Support the belief that the economic principle of traditional > Christian or Catholic social doctrine is the economic principle of communism. > 13. Promote the Pope as the acting go-between for the United States > and the Soviet Union. Hell, it sounded great until you passed point 10, do you think we could get them to forget the last 3 objectives. Date: 12-09-96 (23:13) Number: 2150 of 2163 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: barrya@qni.com, BARRY ALBIN Subj: Re: Questions Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Suba Communications Message-ID: <58i6e3$fdc@suba01.suba.com> dagsan@pacbell.net wrote: >My chief questions are: > > 1. WHY does the Catholic Church CONDEMN Freemasonry and all of >its members? Cardinal Franjo recently wrote a response to this question: He said that the current code of canon law does not forbid catholics in America to join freemasonry. It does forbid a catholic to join any lodge which directly attacks Catholicism. You can join Freemasonry. 2. Am I right in noting that there seems to be an assimilation >of Eastern philosophies/religions in Freemasonry? You confuse Kabbalistic and Hermetic philosophy with Eastern philosophy. They are completely different. Kabballah is based on Scripture. Hermetic philosophy is based on the alleged teachings of Hermes Trimegistus. 3. If you are only a charitable/fraternal organization, then why >all the "secret rites?" Masonry's only secret is the ballot box and the brotherhood that is felt by members toward each other. All other information is available at your local library. Try looking. 4. I have noted that your members are all male. Is this >coincidence, or is your membership restricted? We are a fraternity, not a confraternity. Fraternities are entirely composed of men. Sororities are entirely composed of females Rabbi Barry Albin 32 KCCH Master, Arthur H. Strickland Daylight Lodge #452 Grand Chaplain, Grand Council Cryptic Masons of Kansas Date: 12-09-96 (19:05) Number: 2152 of 2163 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: yollie@azstarnet.com, WILLY Subj: Body Hunting Philosophy #2 Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Starnet Message-ID: Just a thought to stimulate some thinking. I Believe in our desire to Keep our craft alive by seeking new members in whatever manor that we have lost sight of what Masonry is and should mean or do to a man. For example the Material that makes up the First Degree attempts ,to create an individual with responsibilities for his actions and for the situations in which he finds himself for as long as he lives. He is asked to take a very deep look at himself and his method of thinking. For this reason one should ask to become a Mason. No one should be persuaded to assume that sort of responsibility until he feels he is ready for it. As members, have we lost sight of what Masonry was originally meant to be? A learning process that by degrees teaches a man how to be an individual with individual thoughts, to take individual action, in other words to be a better man. He is taught to cut himself from the general mass as the Rough Ashlar is cut from the quarry and by degrees to work himself into a perfect ashlar. We have a tendency to make a mad dash from degree to degree to see how fast we can run from First to Third. In this competition we forget that the Degrees are learning tools and should be studied until the lesson is well learned and can be put to practice. Again, a man should be prepared in his heart to become a Mason before he undertakes such an undertaking. We as Masons should return to the oginal purpose of our Fraternity Teaching by Degrees how to become a better person. When others see how we live and respond to the world around us they will, if interested in also becoming a better person ask "How do I join." Let's stop the Body Hunt philosophy. Look around you, how many recently made Brother Masons exemplify Masonry?? How many learned or are learning the lesons so ably taught in the Degrees? Not the lectures or obligations THE LESSONS. Date: 12-09-96 (19:05) Number: 2152 of 2163 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: yollie@azstarnet.com, WILLY Subj: Body Hunting Philosophy #2 Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Starnet Message-ID: Just a thought to stimulate some thinking. I Believe in our desire to Keep our craft alive by seeking new members in whatever manor that we have lost sight of what Masonry is and should mean or do to a man. For example the Material that makes up the First Degree attempts ,to create an individual with responsibilities for his actions and for the situations in which he finds himself for as long as he lives. He is asked to take a very deep look at himself and his method of thinking. For this reason one should ask to become a Mason. No one should be persuaded to assume that sort of responsibility until he feels he is ready for it. As members, have we lost sight of what Masonry was originally meant to be? A learning process that by degrees teaches a man how to be an individual with individual thoughts, to take individual action, in other words to be a better man. He is taught to cut himself from the general mass as the Rough Ashlar is cut from the quarry and by degrees to work himself into a perfect ashlar. We have a tendency to make a mad dash from degree to degree to see how fast we can run from First to Third. In this competition we forget that the Degrees are learning tools and should be studied until the lesson is well learned and can be put to practice. Again, a man should be prepared in his heart to become a Mason before he undertakes such an undertaking. We as Masons should return to the oginal purpose of our Fraternity Teaching by Degrees how to become a better person. When others see how we live and respond to the world around us they will, if interested in also becoming a better person ask "How do I join." Let's stop the Body Hunt philosophy. Look around you, how many recently made Brother Masons exemplify Masonry?? How many learned or are learning the lesons so ably taught in the Degrees? Not the lectures or obligations THE LESSONS. Date: 12-06-96 (10:47) Number: 2153 of 2163 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: Emmanuel.Ars@sligos.fr, MANU ARS Subj: Free-mason Alphabet : help wanted Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: SLIGOS/Delphia, France Message-ID: <32A7EB9E.2464@sligos.fr> I received some information which has been written using the free-mason alphabet. However, I don't know it nor its origins. Could some one help me traducing these _| |_ letters ? Thanks for your help, please Email-me aswers. `8^7- Manu _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/ Work 33 (0)1 41 28 41 85 Fax 33 (0)1 41 28 45 97 _/ _/ Home 33 (0)1 46 30 74 07 mailto:Manu.Ars@ci.sligos.fr _/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Date: 12-08-96 (21:18) Number: 2154 of 2163 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: mbayrak@gpu4.srv.ualberta.ca, MICHAEL BAYRAK Subj: Finally handed in Petition... Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: University of Alberta Message-ID: <58fban$14eu@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> The other night I finally decided to submit my Petition for Initiation to Ivanhoe Lodge #142, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. I just went to the Freemasons Hall downtown, and the Lodge was about to meet, I met a lot of men, and got the petition signed. It looks like the third Thursday in April will be my EA. Finally, after two years of wondering when I should join, I just went and did it. I am very excited. Thanks to everyone on here who helped me over those years. Yours truly, /----------------------------------------------------------------------\ | Michael S. Bayrak | University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada || |_______________________/ Dept. of Mathematical Sciences || | http://www.ualberta.ca/~mbayrak || | Delta Phi of DELTA KAPPA EPSILON #851 || | http://www.ualberta.ca/~deltake || \=====================================================================// Date: 12-10-96 (01:42) Number: 2155 of 2163 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: pedrotti@slip.net, PETER PEDROTTI Subj: Re: Masonry and Wicca? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Slip.Net Message-ID: <32af6f0c.5533435@news.slip.net> On Mon, 09 Dec 1996 04:39:56 -0500, ORAC wrote: >I am Wiccan, and also have a serious interest in Masonry. >This we have in common. But the break-off occurs in the fact that Masons >seek better understanding through a closer examination of Yeshua and the >prophets and kings and canonical Judeao-Christianity, while Wiccans do >this too but also seek to understand Buddhism, Shinto, etc. Most of this post was points of religious opinion with which I alternately agreed or disagreed, but which the writer has every right to, except this glaring mischaracterization of Masonry. Masonry is not a religion and does not study "Yeshua and the prophets and kings and canonical Judeao-Christianity". Individual Masons, if they are Jews or Christians, may very well concern themselves with such studies. If they are adherents of other faiths, they generally would not. But they are emphatically not Masonic concerns. Some Masonic legends are very loosely based on Biblical accounts, but that is more because the founding Freemasons were Europeans and would find apt stories and quotations in the Bible more readily than in other VOSL, such as the Koran or Bagavath Gita, out of familiarity. Peter Pedrotti, PM Oakland, CA USA Date: 12-10-96 (01:42) Number: 2156 of 2163 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: pedrotti@slip.net, PETER PEDROTTI Subj: Re: Questions Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Slip.Net Message-ID: <32acb4e5.23417564@news.slip.net> On 9 Dec 1996 23:13:07 GMT, Barry Albin wrote: >2. Am I right in noting that there seems to be an assimilation >>of Eastern philosophies/religions in Freemasonry? > >You confuse Kabbalistic and Hermetic philosophy with Eastern philosophy. >They are completely different. Kabballah is based on Scripture. Hermetic >philosophy is based on the alleged teachings of Hermes Trimegistus. >Rabbi Barry Albin 32 KCCH >Master, Arthur H. Strickland Daylight Lodge #452 >Grand Chaplain, Grand Council Cryptic Masons of Kansas Folks, Brother Rabbi Barry, as a Mason, is absolutely entitled to view religion and philosophy according to his own lights as both a Jew and a prominent Scottish Rite Mason. I would, however, caution the reader that Freemasonry itself does not teach Kabbalah or Hermetic thought, so one should not infer from his response that we do. Scottish Rite Masons tend to treat the Rite as a part of Freemasonry, and will often assert that "Freemasonry this or that", when they should more precisely say that "The Scottish Rite of Freemasonry this or that". The Rite requires that its members be Masons, but the organization is not a part of Masonry, rather it is a separate extension on its own. As immensely valuable as the Rite is, there are aspects of it that embarass some Masons (watashe included), particularly the early influence of Albert Pike on the Rite's influential Southern Jurisdiction. Neither does the Scottish Rite teach these subjects in the sense of asking its members to believe them or even to judge them valid approaches for themselves; they are offered along with carloads of other eclectically assembled (and largely forged, er, excuse me, edited) accounts of ancient thought more for comparison than to be accepted. Regards, Peter Pedrotti, PM, 32 (sj) Until last Saturday, Master of Oakland - Durant - Rockridge Lodge #188 Oakland, CA USA Date: 12-10-96 (00:00) Number: 2166 of 2189 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: bb101@sprynet.com, TONY RINI Subj: Some Great Q/A on Some Freemasonry Basics Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sprynet News Service Message-ID: <32ac979c.2249222@news.sprynet.com> Here are 4 responses to a posting I made a little while ago in this NG. This is part 1 of a two part Q/A posting. I'm sorry I did'nt have enough time to include all the responses I have recieved. Thank You to all the people who took the time to answer my questions. I hope by sharing this info more interested parties will look into the fraternity. I've included an AntiMasonic view to kinda level the field. ( Guess which one ) All the opinions below are the sole opinions of the respondees and does not necessarily represent the opinions of Freemasonry as a whole , nor does it represent opinions of Martians, Vegans, Republicans, Democrats, Box Boys or the Mentally Deranged. Get it? Got it? Good. Go with it. All answers are left anonymous. BTW these were Emailed responses and probably won't be found in the RE: or follow up sections of this NG. Feel free to contact me with any complaints or post follow ups to add your opinions. > 1.)What kind of questions are on the petition? Name Age etc Secret... Tony, I don't have a petition here, so going on memory:Full Name, Maritial Status, Length of time at location, References, Occupation and Place of Employment. Also, this information may varyfrom state to state. Name, address, phone, occupation, Length of time lived at current address, date of birth, have you ever been proposed for membership and rejected, do you believe in the existence of one ever living and true god, religious preference, church membership, will you defend and support the constitution and Government of the US, Do you know of any physical, legal or moral reason which should prevent you from becoming a Freemason. In Florida, the questions besides address, date of birth, etc. are: Do you believe in the existence of one ever-living and true God? Do you know of any physical, mental, legal or moral reason which would prevent you from becoming a Freemason?Have you ever pleaded guilty, or been convicted of any crime?Have you previously applied for, or been proposed, as a candidate for the Degrees in a Masonic Lodge?Do you believe, or have you ever believed in the overthrow of thegovernment of the USA by force or infiltration, or been a member of an organization who advocates the same? >2.) When the investigative committee comes to visit me; is this done >in my home or at some other meeting place?,,,,,, > Usually, about how long does it last?,,,,,, Long enough to get aquainted, find out a little about you. Probably less than an hour. Some other meeting place. About three hours. Usually this is done in your home. (A hot cup of coffee or a cold drink would be much appreciated, depending upon the weather) There are two objectives of hte investigative committee. The first is to re-affirm the answers you provided on the petition and get a general "sense" if you are being truthful. The second and probably more important IMHO, is to allow you and your family to ask questions about Freemasonry and to let you and your family know what to expect over the next few months as you go through the degrees. The requirements for your time etc. In Florida, usually at least one person will come visit you at home for about half an hour, to talk with you and your wife, see if you have any questions, and make sure that you don't seem like an alcoholic or wife beater. >3.)What role does my education, employment, >marital status, income, >age, etc. play in my acceptance/unacceptance? None The less your education the better. None of the above items plays much of a role whatsoever. You must be of proper age which in Idaho is 18 but may be 21 in other states, and you cannot have reached the age of senility. Freemasonry regards no man on account of his external wealth. One of the first lessons you will learn in the first degree is that every man is equal in the lodge, your education, employment and income are of no regard. It is hoped you will have sufficient education or knowledge to understand the lessons taught in the degrees. None, at least in our lodge. We have members who are single, divorced, and married, 92 yrs old, and 22 yrs old, have doctoral degrees and people who are functionally illiterate, destitute members and people who own large businesses (although we don't have anybody who's really rich). >4.)What are things that would cause me to >not be accepted? Not having a belief in a "Supreme" being. It doesn't matter what religion you pratice or don't practice as long as you believe in a Supreme being. A Christian that has Jesus Christ for Savior. Drug use, excessive use of alcohol, recent convictions of law, profanity, a poor reputation within the community, atheism, criminal record (without really good mitigating circumstances),serious substance abuse problem, or just if there are a lot of people around town who think that you are an amoral scumbag. > 5.)Approximately how much time is required to learn the rituals and > how long in between them? This will depend on the circumstances under which you go in. Traditional---you will have to learn "part" of each degree mainly the signs, handshake, and obligation you will give to uphold the Masonic Order.There is nothing written down. Some states have code books which have one or 2 letters of a word as a key. Mostly you will have to spend some time with a brother "tutor" who will help you and examine you before the lodge in some cases, others, may just certify that you know it. You will never learn them all, nor all of there meanings. You can be a master mason in less than a month. This will vary greatly from state to state. In Idaho which currently requires the long form of memorization the process can take from four months to three years. It all depends upon how willing you are to meet with your coach for an hour two to three times a week or not. Many states have now gone to a reduced proficiency requirement that could be done very quickly. The time issue is more a problem of when your new lodge can get everyone together to put on the degrees for you. It takes quite a few men hundreds of hours of work to be able to put the degrees on for you. It could be possible with new changed proficiency requirements in some states to go through all three degrees in as little as five or six weeks.Some states are doingall three degrees in a weekend and waiving all ofthe memory stuff. some are asking it be done later. It took me about six-eight hours one-on-one with a coach for each degree. It may take you more or less time, depending on how good you are at memorizing. In FL, at least a month between each degree. > 6.)Is it common for all Master Masons to continue to higher degrees? No...probably the majority never go beyond three. The others up to 32 do NOT make you a higher level Mason. They are mainly additional knowledge and enter you in the Scottish Rite or York Rite. These bodies have no jurisdiction over the Lodge you join or any other Masonic Lodge. You just have to be a Mason (3 degrees) to join. From there you can join Shriners who also have no authority or jurisdiction over the Lodges. Basically a Master Mason (3 degrees) is as high as you get. Not usually. Yes, It seems to be. About half of my lodge members are also Shriners who have gone through either Scottish Rites or York Rites. It is not correct to call these degrees "higher" degrees. The numbers may be "higher", but there is no degree that ranks above that of Master Mason or third degree. These degrees are properly called appendant degrees. Yes, but they're not really "higher degrees", as these really represent other organizations to which Master Masons are permitted to belong. > 7.)Are these higher degrees earned in the same lodge? Nope see above. No. Not likely. A lodge has only three degrees. Going through York Rites or Scottish Rites is done in those respective lodges. They may be in the same building, but they are not the same organization. Some smaller lodges may not have one of the other groups locally and you may have to travel to the next closest larger town to go through these degrees. No, although one might receive them in the same building. > 8.)Is there anyone in the Los Angeles area that could recomend a lodge > that a 25 yr. would be comfortable joining? Can't answer that. You should not feel comfortable joining any of them if you are a Christian. That's a tough one for me to answer since I'm about 1400 miles away. I would suggest that it really does not matter too much. Go through the degrees in the closest lodge to you. After you have completed the degrees you can visit all the other lodges around you and if you find a lodge that you feel more comfortable in you can transfer to that lodge. I would hope you would find that comfort in every lodge you visit. Can't help you here. > 9.)I've read this NG and alot of web pages finding out about the > history of Freemasonry,,what books am I likely to find at my local > library that might help me aquire a better understanding? See the FAQ pages mentioned on this NG Freemasonry in Light of the Bible. It depends upon the library, In LA you should be able to find two very good books by John J Robinson. The first is Pilgrims Path and the second would be Born In Blood. Ask your local lodge if they have a copy of the Grand Lodge OF Illinois video tape called The Unseen Journey. This is about 75 minutes long and is one of the most informative and well down tapes I have seen. I'm sure some one inthe lodge would have a copy to loan you. They may even have a lodge copy and would be happy to show it to you at the lodge. You'll be better off learning more about Freemasonry after you become a Mason. I read a bunch of books before I became a Mason, including the anti-Masonic ones. Many are helpful and many are wildly inaccurate (and not just the anti-Masonic ones), and it's very difficult for the non-Mason to determine which is which. > 10.)Since the begining of Freemasonry (whenever > that was) what major changes have been made to it and how did they > come about? Can't answer that but since it originated with the building of KingSolomon's Temple..and was re-constituted in the 1700's as the type of organization it istoday...not made up of operative Masons but "spectulative"...itcontinues to change. Many of the secrets have been revealed to non-masons. Yikes, this is a real tough one. Written history dates Freemasonry back to about 926 AD. This comes to us in the Regius Poem written about 1300. Try Dr. Roger Firestones FAQ page on the Internet for the better answers. He is very knowledgable. The major change was the formation of the Grand Lodge of England about 1720. Minor changes in Freemasonry have occurred all the time and will continue to occur. I will certainly get some commetn back from other brothers but in looking at the history of Freemasonry I find that it is a constantly changing thing. The changes are slow, well thought out, but inexorable. I hope this helps. Peace be with you. -----Tony Date: 12-10-96 (15:32) Number: 2169 of 2189 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Floorworks importance Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <58jvr4$6l0@news2.cais.com> Freemasonry is a three-legged stool. One leg is the ritual, one is the principles of the Order, and one is the philosophy and history of Masonry (or Masonic education). All are equally essential. I have heard a Grand Master say that Masonry without ritual is a gentlemen's club. True enough, but Masonry without principles (and with ritual) is the KKK. And Masonry without education is a group without purpose or direction. Some Masons are excellent ritualists but poor researchers; others are great preceptors (teachers of principles) but cannot memorize more than the necessary catechisms; and so on. We need all kinds of Masons as leaders, perhaps at different times. I see it as unfortunate when the emphasis is placed solely on honoring those who are great memory experts. A Master should be able to discharge his ritual responsibilities adequately, but he ought also be able to enlighten and instruct his Brethren. When we seek only those who are memorizers but who cannot lead otherwise, we might as well place a tape recorder in the East. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 12-10-96 (16:15) Number: 2170 of 2189 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Probation Officers Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <58k2a9$s46@news2.cais.com> In article , Patrice wrote: >In article <32AB9987.3C8B@cris.com>, >John & Cynthia Aponte wrote: > >>Further I believe Wayne is doing what most people call networking. > >And this is not a problem in itself, but... > >Masonry is not the place to do it and I wholeheartedly agree with Bro. >Wyatt. > >A few days after my initiation, the JW (who here is in charge of the >education of the EAs) told me: "If one day, a Brother asks you... well a >professional favour: 1) the one and only answer is NO, 2) ring the WM and >tell him" Exactly what violation of Masonic law would this be? Is not a Brother obligated to provide help, aid, and assistance to another Master Mason? Surely that cannot mean only providing charity to the destitute, but also in providing professional assistance to a Mason so that he will not become a charge upon the charity of the Lodge or other organization! Maimonides defined eight steps of charity, the highest of which was not the giving of alms in any form but in preventing the need for charity by putting a friend in the way of business, making a loan or gift to enable him to embark on an enterprise, or giving him a job where he might earn his living. >Masonry has enough enemies without this, IMO. What fodder does this give to our enemies? Do not old Army buddies help one another? Do not school alumni associations provide social contacts that produce job leads and hiring? And do not our very _enemies_ publish "Christian Yellow Pages" so that members of their faith may deal only with others of the same persuasion in business? >Not all those who wander are lost. > >Sincerely and Fraternally, > >Patrice >Loge l'Etoile #1001 >Grande Loge de France, Paris I would not favor a Brother over someone better qualified, but I would certainly give a Brother every opportunity to prove that he _was_ qualified to fill any position that my employer might have open. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 12-11-96 (20:53) Number: 2194 of 2199 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: PLZ@macbroker.com, PATRICE Subj: Re: Free-mason Alphabet : help wanted Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: InterServ News Service Message-ID: In article <32ACEED8.3893@iprolink.ch>, Gilles Goy wrote: >and thus making >them irregulars, such attitude is funny... Dear Brother Gilles, The UGLoE has no power to make other GLs regular or not. Regularity is based on ancient landmarks. The problem is that the number of landmarks vary from a GL to another between none and 50, and I am not speaking of their interpretation. The usual comes down to working to TGoTGAOTU which is viewed as a creative principle or supreme being, having the Bible as VSL along with the Square and Compass, admitting no women, not speaking about religion or politics in Lodge and accepting candidates regardless of race, color, religion or social status. UGLoE, on the other hand, can grant or withdraw recognition to a GL, thus allowing or not the Brethren to visit a large part of the Craft. Fact is that UGLoE recognises some irregular bodies (according to its own landmarks), and fact is that some perfectly regular bodies are not recognised. This situation, most often stupid in my humble opinion, definitely seems to have more to do with politics rather than aims and relationships of the Craft . Sincerely and Fraternally, Patrice Loge l'Etoile #1001 Grande Loge de France, Paris Date: 12-12-96 (16:45) Number: 2206 of 2231 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Masonry and Wicca Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <58pcqc$ovq@news2.cais.com> In article <58l2qo$o7b@ns2.southeast.net>, Dan Sale wrote: >bowen@argo.unm.edu ([g bowen]) wrote: > >>Dr. Paul W. Ross (ross@cs.millersv.edu) wrote: >>: Also, I believe if you check into some of the Mormon rituals, you will >>: also find similarities to Masonic ritual. Most fraternal organizations >>: seem to pattern their rituals on the Masonic pattern, from what my sons >>: tell me of their college fraternaties. > >Thank you for confirming that they are ALL ONE AND THE SAME, as I have >CLEARLY stated before. No, he said that they were similar or patterned after other rituals. That does not make them "one and the same" as you put it. The ritual for ordination of a Catholic priest is patterned after the semicha used in Judaism and is similar to the ordination of a Protestant minister. That does not mean, as your reasoning might have it, that ministers, priests, and rabbis are all "one and the same." (For that matter, the Girl Scouts are patterned after the Boy Scouts, but that does not mean that boys and girls are "one and the same," thank goodness. Vive la difference!) Fraternal systems were not invented by the Freemasons (look at the Pharisees sometime), nor were rites of initiation. Certain things that intend to achieve common objectives are likely to be structured similarly. In biology, this is called convergent evolution. (The cephalopod eye is very similar to the vertebrate eye, yet they evolved completely independently.) Sometimes, there is really only one sensible way of doing things, and independent minds will hit on that way independently. You don't need to postulate a conspiracy to have commonality. (Doing so is a logical fallacy. The wackos claim that the two Kennedy assassinations and those of Martin Luther King and Malcolm X were all part of a conspiracy because they occurred within the same decade. How come they don't go around claiming that McKinley and Archduke Ferdinand and the Romanov dynasty were all done in by the same conspiracy? The reasoning would be the same...) Sorry, but you haven't proved anything, nor has anything "damaging" been admitted by anyone. (Y'know, I always wonder why these common elements among human institutions are taken as evidence of a conspiracy, but the enormous commonality among the beliefs of so many religions cannot be accepted by those same conspiracy wackos as evidence that God has spoken to many peoples many times in the same terms. Interesting, eh?) Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 12-16-96 (11:49) Number: 2292 of 2298 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: ness2@crocker.com, MARIE PAIGE Subj: History of Amaranth: An org. for masons and their properly Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: New England Software Svcs, Inc. Message-ID: <593d17$6t@news.crocker.com> Request to repost: This is historical information about how Amaranth began. It's interesting at least - even if you have no desire to join. It was typed from a flyer available to the public a few years back and I hope you enjoy the historical aspects. "This resume has been prepared for those who are interested in becoming a member of the Order of the Amaranth, and for a new member whose interest has been aroused by the beauty of the degree." PREFACE: The Order of the Amaranth is a fraternal organization composed of Master Masons and their properly qualified female relatives. In its teachings, the members are emphatically reminded of their duties to God, to their country and to their fellow beings. They are urged to portray, by precept and example, their belief in the "Golden Rule" and by conforming to the virtues inherent in TRUTH, FAITH, WISDOM and CHARITY they can prove to others the goodness promulgated by the Order. The extent of it's Charitable Work and overall Benevolence is limited only by the opportunities that exist, and the ability to secure adequate funding. It's Philanthropic project is the Amaranth Diabetes Foundation. The flag of the appropriate country is prominently displayed at all meetings creating a strong sentiment of patriotism and devotion to the respective land that we love. Conspicuously upon the Altar is placed the Holy Bible, the inspired word of God. It's divine truths send forth it's sacred luster to all parts of the globe and is used among us as a symbol of the will of God. It reminds us of the omnipresence of the "Almighty" overshadowing us with His Divine Love and dispensing His blessings among us. The leaves of the Amaranth plant (Like the "Laurel") is indicative of distinction and honor, and when formed into the "Amaranthine Wreath" with it's never ending circle, is typical of the bond of fraternal friendship which encircles our beloved order, and which has a central place upon our Standard (Ceremonial Flag), surrounding the "Crown and Sword". BRIEF HISTORY: About three hundred years ago in Sweden, a little girl just six years old named Christina became the ruler of that country. As she grew to womanhood, she was very fond of things beautiful, cultured and of social importance. During her reign as Queen, she created the Order of the Amarantha for the ladies and knights of her royal court, building it around the character of Lady Amarantha, who was portrayed as being a beautiful, virtuous and talented Lady of the Court. Queen Christina herself acted the part of Lady Amarantha; and the name of the Order was probably chosen because of the beautiful never-fading red Amaranthus flowers growing in profusion in Spain and Portugal. The Order was perpetuated and exists in the Royal Court of Sweden now. As originally created by Queen Christina, the Royal and Social Order of the Amarantha had no more connection with Masonry than did the beautiful Catholic Cathedrals constructed by masons and by builders of old, before the structure of Masonry was developed and embodied in our present day Fraternity. So let's leave the Swedish Order of the Amarantha and return to more modern days. In the middle of the 19th century, a number of societies were started in America, in which females could become members. The two that we are most concerned with are the "Order of the Eastern Star" and the "Order of the Amaranth". From the report of Honored Lady Grace Scheninger, a member of the present Order who visited Sweden in recent years, we find the following interesting information: "One account was given by an Englishman, himself a member of the order and a long time guest of Christina's Court, seems the most plausible and in keeping with the lessons handed down to us in our present Order. He says: "The person kneeling down before the Queen held up his hands between the Queen's hands: she declared his duty in that order, to maintain and defend virtue and the honor of virtuous ladies, to endeavor to correct vice, to perform honorable actions, to keep his faith inviolable, in all matters relating to honor and virtuous performances; which the Court promised to observe. The Queen put upon his left shoulder and tied under his right arm a scarf of crimson taffeta, with a broad silver fringe; and the jewel of the order hung in the scarf, it was about the compass of half a crown; it was made of gold, a round wreath wrought and enameled like a laurel, and in the midst thereof two great AA reversed, set thick with diamonds, the two AA for the first and last letters of Amaranta, and about the wreath was written 'dolce nella memoria', 'Sweet is the memory', that is of a certain noble and famous great lady named Amaranta, who was an eminent pattern and example of the highest honor and virtue, in memory of whom this Court was instituted." It again appears in France when the Lodges of Adoption were organized about 1730, each of which was under the control of a Masonic Lodge until June 10, 1974, when the Grand Orient of France by an Edict assumed control of all Lodges of Adoption. In 1860, Brother James B. Taylor from Newark, NJ, attempted to compose the material to start a New "Society". He learned that in 1653, Queen Christina of Sweden,, had combined a group of "Sir Knights" and "Ladies" together to have "gala" parties. She called this group the "Order of the Amaranta". Brother Taylor was so impressed with what he had read that he copied many of the symbols and much of the phraseology used therein. He even copied the name, the "Order of the Amaranth". Brother Robert Macoy, who was in control of the "Order of the Eastern Star" around 1870, decided that it might be advisable to add two or more degrees to it. Then, in 1873, he formed the "Rite of Adoption", with the "Order of the Eastern Star" as the first, or initiatory degree, and "The Queen of the South" as the second degree and the "Order of the Amaranth" as the third, or highest degree. His plan was to have these degrees given separately but under the control of one body. Both Eastern Star "Chapters" and Amaranth "Courts" were included in the Adoptive Rite Ritual. The Order of the Amaranth was officially organized June 14, 1873 in New York City as part of the Rite of Adoption. Robert Macoy was the first Supreme Royal Patron and Rob Morris was the first Supreme Recorder of the Order under Robert Macoy. In the Rite of Adoption Ritual it was said: "This Organization shall be known as the 'Rite of Adoption of the World' and shall consist of the degrees of the Eastern Star, the Queen of the South and the Order of the Amaranth." Brother Robert Macoy obtained the material that Brother Taylor had written about the Amaranth, and revised and perfected it into "ritualistic" form so that it could be used as the ritual for the third degree. From 1873 until 1921, all members of the Amaranth were required to join the "Order of the Eastern Star" first, and to maintain this membership to be able to stay members of the Amaranth. In 1921, by mutual agreement, this requirement ceased. They are now completely separate organizations. In 1895, Robert Macoy died. New officers arranged for the Supreme Council of the "Order of the Amaranth" to hold it's first meeting of it's officers and members in 1897. Since then, and "Annual Meeting" has been held each year. Under the jurisdiction of the Supreme Council we have forty-three Grand Courts (each is Statewide), located in the United States, Canada, Australia, England, Phillippines and Scotland. Also, Subordinate Courts (local) in Hawaii, New Zealand and Ireland (there are a few individual states in the U.S. that do not have Grand Courts). The "Order of the Amaranth" means many things to many people. To it's early members it meant the opportunity to build upon the strong foundation of TRUTH, FAITH, WISDOM and CHARITY. A fraternal order having for it's purpose, service to humanity, set to the music of fraternal love. To it's present members, the "Order of the Amaranth" means a challenge to build higher and stronger upon these foundations of Fraternal Love and Service. It means the Hand of Fraternal Friendship to those in distress. It means Thinking and Remembering about its members in their hours of sorrow and sickness. Most of all, it means the opportunity to serve its Fellowmen, to enjoy the close fraternal ties of mutual respect and understanding to enrich our lives with friendship worth far more than gold or silver. -- If you would like more information on the Order of the Amaranth or have any questions, please feel free to contact me. Should that be the case, please send your name, email address and City/ST ONLY. I would be happy to give you the name and phone number of a member in your area, but the initial call is YOUR CHOICE. Fraternally, Marie Paige, Grand Associate Matron Grand Court Order of the Amaranth, Commonwealth of Massachusetts ( ness2@crocker.com ) Date: 12-16-96 (23:05) Number: 2295 of 2298 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: tomasball@aol.com, TOMAS BALL Subj: Re: 47th Problem of Euclid, as requested Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19961216230400.SAA21815@ladder01.news.aol.com> Here is a version of the talk I gave in Lodge on the 47th prop. of Euclid. Please bear in mind this was given in a somewhat rural lodge, so I wrote for my audience. I realize a lot has been written about the "mystical" aspects of this subject, as well as applying a lot of symbolism to it. That was simply not in the scope of my presentation on this occasion, and I frankly think that the practical impact Pythagoras' theorem had on the world completely overshadows any later efforts to "mysticize" it. The 47th Problem of Euclid...it is one of the most frequently used of Masonic symbols. We see it as one of the emblems on the Master's carpet; in some jurisdictions it is the jewel of a Past Master; in Texas it is the central figure of the design on the Grand Master's apron, as well as of other Grand Officers. Anderson's Constitutions of 1723, the first published version of Masonic Laws and Charges, begins with an ornate frontispiece showing Grand Masters on a checkered pavement, and there on the floor, is a diagram of the 47th Problem of Euclid. Yet many Masons have no idea what the diagram refers to, or why it should occupy an important place in our system of symbols. If the pyramids, and the hanging gardens of Babylon were physical wonders of ancient world, then the 47th Problem of Euclid was a wonder of reasoning. To put it simply, this diagram demonstrates a discovery which is the foundation of Geometry, and of architecture. It occupies a vital place in the history of human knowledge, and, it can be argued, is the starting point of all science. Strong words. But I think, as I explain myself, you will understand why I feel comfortable assigning such importance to a few lines drawn on a piece of paper. First, who was Euclid? Euclid was a Greek mathematician, living in Alexandria, Egypt around 300 BC. His contribution to our story was not by originating, so much as cataloging ideas. Euclid, literally, wrote the book on Geometry. He compiled everything that was known at his time about Geometry into a book, which he called Elements of Geometry. That book stood as the authority on Geometry for more than 2000 years. Over the centuries it became the most published book in the world after the Bible. Page by page, Euclid presents each principle of Geometry with detailed explanations, beginning by defining a point, then a line, and moving on to gradually more complex demonstrations. Accordingly, the order in which the problems are discussed has become the system for cataloging and naming them, much as we know to quote the Bible by chapter and verse. The idea we are interested in was Proposition number 47 of Book 1. As I said, Euclid only enters our story as the collector and cataloger of geometrical propositions. The person credited with the actual discovery of this principle was another Greek philosopher of an even earlier age. Pythagoras was born on the island of Samos, in the Aegean Sea in about 580 BC. His biographer, Iamblichus, says he traveled widely, and was initiated into various mysteries, in Tyre, Babylon, and Egypt before settling in Crotona, a Greek colony in southern Italy, where a school of his disciples, a sort of early secret society, grew up. Both Euclid and Pythagoras are mentioned in Old Charges and manuscripts of Freemasonry as far back as the 1400's, usually describing them in completely the wrong eras of history; for instance, Euclid is described in some places as a contemporary of Abraham. It is interesting that Pythagoras is usually spelled very strangely, like the name had been handed down from mouth to ear for a long time, or for a short time by people who couldn't hear very well. The most curious occurrences are when the manuscripts mention a wise geometrician named Peter Gower. Mathematics and numbers were central to the philosophy Pythagoras taught, but unfortunately, as in the cases of other Greek thinkers, like Socrates, nothing of his own writings remain, but only those of his students. It has been suggested that Pythagoras himself did not discover the geometric theorem that bears his name, but that it merely came from the school he founded. I prefer to believe that he did. Before I go into detail about what exactly Pythagoras hit on, I'm going to take you even further back in time, to Ancient Egypt. Obviously, the Egyptians who built the pyramids and other monuments that have survived the millennia were superb operative masons, and even then, geometry was central to their craft. Let me set you a puzzle. If you wanted to make a right angle, you would take your mason's square, and use it to square the angle you were working on. But what if you didn't have a square to use as a tool, or a protractor to measure ninety degrees, or another right angle to compare it to. The Egyptian masons knew the answer; it was one of their secrets, and I'll let you in on it. The ancient Egyptians knew that if you took a rod 3 cubits long, another 4 cubits long, and another rod 5 cubits long, and laid them end to end in a triangle, the angle where the 3- and 4-cubit rods met was always a right angle. To the Egyptians, this was a wonderful and powerful tool, almost bordering on the magical. Their chief architects carried a set of rods to use whenever a square corner was needed. Another method was to take a string with twelve cubits marked out on it, and stake it out in a triangle with three cubits on one side, four on another, and five on the other. Of course the unit of measurement could be anything...a cubit, a foot, a meter, an inch, a yard...it was the relative lengths of 3 by 4 by 5 that resulted in a right triangle. But there is a property of this 3-4-5 proportion that makes it even more curious. Take the two smaller sides and square their lengths: 3x 3 = 9, and 4 x 4 = 16. 9 + 16 = 25, or 5 x 5. Another way to say this is that if you make a square out of each side, and add the areas of the two smaller squares, you get the area of the larger square. Pythagoras found that this held, not just for the 3 by 4 by 5 triangle, but for any right triangle. He started with a what was just a useful tool and discovered a fundamental rule of nature. What the Pythagorean Theorem, also called the 47th Proposition of Euclid, says, is that for any right triangle, that is, any triangle containing a 90-degree angle, the square of the "hypotenuse," the longer side, equals the sum of the squares of the two shorter sides. Today over a hundred ways have been found to prove this proposition. To explain any of them requires drawing diagrams, which I can't do in this setting, but all these proofs arrive at that moment of epiphany when the pieces come together like a jigsaw puzzle, and I can't help thinking of the day 2500 years ago when the puzzle was first solved. This morning Pythagoras woke up in a world of chaos, variety and inexactness, but now the universe has changed, and Pythagoras has caught nature red-handed in the act of displaying order and following rules. Imagine a caveman looking at the Astrodome, imagining it is just a big hill, then going inside and suddenly understanding the architecture that holds it up. Pythagoras had peeked under the veneer of the universe, and found that space had a kind of architecture, and that architecture was made of numbers. To us, looking at this from the vantage point of a couple of thousand years later, The 47th problem might seem a little less dramatic. It is, after all, just another one of the laws of nature. We have to remember that to the Pythagoreans, it was a new and wonderful thing to find that there were any laws of nature. Even now, we can't explain why space fits together this way, we're just so used to seeing it that we tend to overlook the implications of a world ruled by numbers. Now, it was possible to use Geometry to make predictions, not just on paper, but in the field. You could indirectly tell the length of something it was impossible to measure directly. If you knew the lengths of two sides of a right triangle, you could predict the length of the third, and always be right. The world obeyed numbers, not at random times, but always. Armed with this insight, Pythagoras taught that numbers were even more real than the world they described. He uncovered the basis of music theory when he found that you could pluck a string to make one note, then divide the string exactly by two, and pluck it to make the note one octave higher. By dividing the string length exactly by three, four and five, notes were produced which harmonized with the first. To the Pythagoreans, they were discovering a divine language of pure mathematics. To us, they were discovering that the universe could be described, predicted, and understood. Pythagoras supposedly was so inspired by the discovery of what we now call the 47th Problem of Euclid that he sacrificed a hecatomb, a hundred oxen, to the Muses in gratitude. If so, I would think he got off cheap. This single discovery has echoed through history. The entire science of trigonometry is based on it. Mapmaking, astronomy, architecture, even space travel would be impossible without it. The English political philosopher Thomas Hobbes, whose Leviathan was one of the most important books of the seventeenth century, probably would never have achieved the fame he did if he had not, at the age of 42, glanced at a copy of Euclid's Elements in a friend's study, opened to the 47th proposition. Hobbes was supposedly so shocked by the implications of the theorem that he exclaimed, "By God, this is impossible!" This single revelation apparently motivated Hobbes to a fevered lifelong study of geometry, and later physics, philosophy, and political science. It has been speculated that any civilized race will have at some point in its history discovered the Pythagorean Theorem. As I was writing this talk I suddenly remembered years ago reading a book by Pierre Boulle, who also wrote The Bridge on the River Kwai. The book I remembered was called Monkey Planet, and was made into a movie called "Planet of the Apes." In the book, an astronaut travels to a far-away planet ruled by a race of intelligent chimpanzees. To complicate matters, there are humans on the planet, but they are brute animals, like apes are here. The chimpanzees, speaking their own ape language, are unable to make sense of our hero's French, and consider him also a brute until he draws for them a diagram of the 47th proposition of Euclid, whereupon they realize he is a civilized, intelligent being, like themselves. As it has been passed down through the ages, this theorem has grown from a useful geometric principle into a symbol of the harmony of the universe. The Greek historian Plutarch, who lived in the first century AD said that the 3-4-5 triangle had become a symbol for the Egyptian gods, Osiris, Isis, and Horus, reminding us of the manner in which the Christian Trinity is sometimes represented by an equilateral triangle. We are told in the Monitor that the 47 Proposition of Euclid is a symbol to admonish Masons to be lovers of learning. I would like to close my talk by sharing with you a story I found in a biography of Pythagoras written in the fourth century AD. A disciple of Pythagoras travelling near Crotona, came to an inn, where he fell ill from the rigors of his trip. The inn-keeper, being of a benevolent disposition, cared for the Pythagorean, supplying his needs as best he could until he finally died. But before the Pythagorean died, he wrote what the author termed "a certain symbol" on a tablet, and instructed the inn-keeper to display the tablet outside the inn, near the road, and to observe if any passer's-by stopped to notice it. The inn-keeper buried the man decently, and more out of curiosity than expectation did as he asked with the tablet. A long time later, a passing Pythagorean spotted the symbol and stopping to inquire, learned about what had transpired, whereupon he repaid the inn-keeper all the expenses he had generously provided to his long-dead brother, together with a large additional sum out of gratitude. This is an obscure and little known story, and the author of the story does not venture to say what the symbol of recognition was. It very well may have been a diagram of Pythagoras' Theorem, since probably only another Pythagorean at that time would have understood the meaning of such marks, but another possibility presents itself, because the Pythagorean brotherhood had another symbol, with which they identified themselves, and which they used to sign letters to one another, and which is also quite familiar to Freemasons, the five-pointed star. Date: 12-18-96 (20:21) Number: 2346 of 2349 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: georgiou@csci.csusb.edu, GEORGE M GEORGIOU Subj: Re: An interesting Question? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: CS dept. Cal. State Univ., San Bernardino Message-ID: io30031@nlis.com (Anthony J. Bessey) writes: > In King Soloman's Temple, there sat two pillars at the main entrance. Each, > as any Master Mason Knows has a name. Placed upon those two pillars in > are Two spheres. In todays lodges these two pillars (in the West) also > have two spheres on top of them. ***Here is the question*** How could > there have been spheres (representing what they do) at the time of the > building of King Soloman's Temple, if it was widely beleived and > accepted as fact that the world was round? It was known to the ancient Greeks that the earth was round. Eratosthenes (first or second century B.C. ?) even calcuted the radius of the earth quite accurately. Whether the two sheres with the meaning masons ascribe to them were actually present at King's Solomon's temple is another story. --George Date: 12-18-96 (14:46) Number: 2360 of 2367 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jgbennie@vcn.bc.ca, JIM BENNIE Subj: Re: An interesting Question? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Vancouver CommunityNet Message-ID: <59903t$jdt@milo.vcn.bc.ca> Anthony J. Bessey (io30031@nlis.com) wrote: : In King Soloman's Temple, there sat two pillars at the main entrance. Each, : as any Master Mason Knows has a name. Placed upon those two pillars in : are Two spheres. In todays lodges these two pillars (in the West) also : have two spheres on top of them. ***Here is the question*** How could : there have been spheres (representing what they do) at the time of the : building of King Soloman's Temple, if it was widely beleived and : accepted as fact that the world was round? Very simple, Tony. There never were globes on the pillars. Read I Kings VII 41 & 42 or II Chronicles IV 12 & 13. The reference to globes is made up for symbolic purposes. I should mention there is no mention of globes in the FC Tracing Board lecture in the Canadian working. Many of the historical inaccuracies in the explanation were deleted when the Canadian work was compiled well over 130 years ago. Jim Bennie WM Lodge Southern Cross #44 Vancouver BC -- Date: 12-19-96 (19:41) Number: 2361 of 2367 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: nschlink@rex.re.uokhsc.edu, NSCHLINK Subj: RE: An Interesting Question? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA) Message-ID: <32b99a46.3579925@news.uoknor.edu> On 18 Dec 1996 20:21:18 -0800, in alt.freemasonry you wrote: >io30031@nlis.com (Anthony J. Bessey) writes: >> In King Soloman's Temple, there sat two pillars at the main entrance. Each, >> as any Master Mason Knows has a name. Placed upon those two pillars in >> are Two spheres. In todays lodges these two pillars (in the West) also >> have two spheres on top of them. ***Here is the question*** How could >> there have been spheres (representing what they do) at the time of the >> building of King Soloman's Temple, if it was widely beleived and >> accepted as fact that the world was round? > >It was known to the ancient Greeks that the earth was round. >Eratosthenes (first or second century B.C. ?) even calcuted the radius >of the earth quite accurately. Whether the two sheres with the meaning >masons ascribe to them were actually present at King's Solomon's temple is >another story. > >--George it was in roughly between 240 B.C. when eratosthenes found a way to measure the earth. it was hypothesized by pythagorus and aristotle about the spherical nature of the earth. aristotle summarized the reasons for this in roughly 350B.C., and it has been generally accepted among intellectuals since that time. even when persecuted, the academics new the nature of our fair orb. the size of the moon and sun were first hypothesized using geometry in 280 B.C. by aristarchus. he was not correct, but took a stab at it (he didn't have sufficient measuring devices). in 240 B.C., eratosthenes found a way to measure the circumference of the earth. he was in alexandria, but went to syene because he learned that there was no shadow cast in that city at the summer solstice (for it is directly overhead). therefore in alexandria the sun would be 7 degrees from zenith. this simple fact showed without a doubt the curvature of the earth, and eratosthenes used mathematics to figure the circumference. he estimated it at 25,000 miles ( the correct figure being 24, 902 miles). i think he did well, don't you? by the way, good post! i like to learn and help others and with stimulating questions like these this group will go a long way! nathan s. okc #36, af&am Date: 12-19-96 (05:31) Number: 2400 of 2406 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Masonry and Christianity Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <59ajus$o2d@news2.cais.com> In article <01bbec49$b32c1900$092749c2@gateway>, Timothy Gouldstone wrote: >I can't see how such a peculiar mish-mash of quasi-religious ceremonies can >have anything remotely connected with the Christian faith. That's not to >criticise individual Masons, who are very often upright and caring >citizens. But religiously it just early 18th century Deism with some >Kabbalistic filling. Most peculiar Masonry is not a religion. Therefore, its ceremonies are not "quasi-religious." They teach moral precepts via symbolism and allegory. I don't even know what it means to be "quasi-religious." Either something is done in the name of God as worship or it is not. The ceremonies of Masonry could equally well be compared to Yoga or Zen as to any western religion, for they are about self- improvement and the search for moral and philosophical truth. Masonry is not "religiously...Deism" for it is not religiously anything. There may be references to the Kabbalah in the Scottish Rite, but that Rite draws from many sources, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Zoroastrianism, among others. Masonry is an organization to which only religious men may belong, but that does not make it a religion. Deists are welcome in Masonry, but so are men of any other sincere belief in a Supreme Being, including those who believe that God takes an active part in daily life (which is certainly contradictory to Deism). You have not done your homework. Most peculiar... Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 12-19-96 (14:38) Number: 2401 of 2406 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Wives Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <59bk20$pdf@news2.cais.com> In article <5997m7$gm1@amanda.dorsai.org>, New York Theosophical Society wrote: > Regardless of your correctness or incorrectness, your statement >shows that you have been listening too much to Rush Limbaugh, who is an >entertainer and not a newscaster. Rush says that there are about 20 people he would call "feminazis," but that they are the ones who get all the publicity from the fawning media. So far as I can tell, Rush has no problem with women's equality. He objects to replacing a culture of male superiority with one of female superiority. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of Freemasonry... Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 12-19-96 (14:40) Number: 2402 of 2406 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: AOL: 'The Straight Dope' vs. Freemasonry Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <59bk4t$qqq@news2.cais.com> So could you tell us non-AOL types what Cecil Adams had to say about Freemasonry? Thanks. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 12-20-96 (14:57) Number: 2403 of 2406 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Catholic Masons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <59e9g9$ban@news2.cais.com> It amuses me to see an essentially Protestant fundamentalist anti-Masonic operation appeal to the authority of the Pope on the subject of Freemasonry. I can't imagine their accepting the Vatican as an authority on any other subject. Fundamentalist groups were also the most vocal opponents of the campaign for the presidency of John F. Kennedy because of his adherence to the Catholic faith and their irrational fears of Vatican domination of the US government. (We also hear fears about Jewish politicians because they would somehow take orders from Israel. Why does no one fear Episcopalian politicians taking orders from the Archbishop of Canterbury? Or Presbyterian politicians doing nothing because all is predestined? Or Quaker politicians dismantling the defense department? Or Lutheran politicians making everyone eat lutefisk?) Now they cite an article from a 36-year-old Scottish Rite publication as evidence of Masonic involvement in the supposed assassination conspiracy against JFK, notwithstanding that they would have agreed with every word of the SGC's editorial at the time. Of course, intellectual consistency is a serious obstacle if one is going to deal in anti-Masonic bigotry, conspiracy theories, etc. Just another CROCK from the folks at crocker.com... Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 12-20-96 (23:08) Number: 2404 of 2406 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais2.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Monotheism/Polytheism (was Re: An interested third party) Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <59f69f$k66@news2.cais.com> The requirements of Freemasonry say nothing about monotheism or polytheism; they refer only to a belief in a Supreme Being and the Great Architect of the Universe or Creator. Since the Hindu religion generally characterizes Brahma as the Creator of the universe and since Hindus believe that we are accountable in the next life for misdeeds committed in this, most Masonic authorities I know of consider that their obligations are properly taken and enforced by a Higher Power than that of men and thus can be admitted Masons. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH From "The Oklahoma Scottish Rite 12/20/96 Mason," September issue of this year. It discusses the recognition of PH and the states listed (which number 19) are: California Colorado Connecticut Hawaii Idaho Kansas Maine Massachusetts Minnesota Montana Nebraska New Mexico North Dakota Ohio South Dakota Vermont Washington Wisconsin Wyoming There are 6 Canadian provinces that recognize PH: British Columbia Manitoba New Brunswick Novia Scotia Prince Edward Island Quebec Date: 12-22-96 (11:55) Number: 50 of 65 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: alshaq@Golden.net, A L SHAQUAR Subj: Re: JFK on secret societies (resend) Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sentex Communications Message-ID: <32BD67FF.585D@Golden.net> Mike Restivo wrote with authority ;) ... > > tmorgen wrote in article > <01bbefc0$fdac2fe0$061093cf@tmorgen>... > > Mr. Restivo, > > Your short message has provided more answers that you > > realize. > > Have a nice day, > > Ted Morgenthaler, PM, Central City, Colorado > > >This agrees with Pike's observation about Freemasonry needing >secrecy. An in formed public, or informed membership for that >matter, is not in the Order's b est interest. Pike read much into the symbolism of masonry, and although he was an extraordinary Cabalist and symbolist, his views were and are his own. >While Christendom dozes in the pews or lapses deeper into >apostasy, the minio ns of the New Age are ramping up mightily to >provide the education to a new ge neration of children who will be >conditioned and lead by example, impression, symbol and >metaphor into Humanistic-Existentialist philosophies Yes. It is inevitable. > in which God is unnecessary to the one who achieves the Gnosis >(Enlightenmen t, like Nirvana) or in Naturalistic terms, as I call it, >the Will to Power (H edonism/Epicureanism). Now your ignorance of the Gnosis is showing. One who achieves Gnosis is more aware of the God in everything. >I believe that non-Masons observe in Masons the attitude or >culture of learne d occultists, at least of theory if not of practice (like >myself). "Masons re ad a lot of esoteric stuff...they would know >where to get materials of arcane lore..." goes the thinking, not in so >many words, but non-Mason individuals wi th an occult inclination >recognize or sense in Masonry a body of kindred spiri t, which spirit >is that of this world and of the astral plane (i.e. the 2nd he aven, >which is the dwelling place of demons, spirits, elementals, psychic >phe nomena, etc.). This spirit of sub-consciousness or Yesod (i.e. the 2nd heaven, which is the dwelling place of demons, spirits, elementals, psychic phenomena, etc.), is common to every human being on the planet. Those wishing to explore the deeper recesses of the mind need some sort of guidance. The reason they sense a body of kindred spirit is due to the sub-conscious link they are wishing to explore. >It is Satan who has dominion over the world, but in their egotism, >vanity and blindness (a spiritually deadly mix of imperfections) >Masonic intitatives are oriented to the task of making desolate the >Temples of Religion and placing t hemselves there in. Here you sound like a typical Fundamentalist. Satan is a creation of the Christian Church. Yalaboath is a creation of the Sethian Gnostics. They both got it wrong. >All in all this constitutes a test, the separation of the sheep who >follow th e Good Shepherd, or the goats, who follow their own lusts, >whatever the source of such cravings may reside, on earth or in >Hell. Wrong again. Hell is a creation of the inaccurate translation of the Bible. It may be worth noting that, in the Old Testament, GeHinnom is simply a place name, the Valley of Hinnom. Only in the New Testament is the Greek word "yeevva" translated as "hell" or "hellfire". The valley of Hinnom, ancient Jerusalem's garbage dump and crematorium for criminals and the poor; hence by extension or analogy, Hell. >"Hell is that state in which one is unable to be satisfied, despite >complete freedom to indulge in any desire." - Restivo. Wrong again. "Chained in darkness" "hell" is separation from God, hence, Gnosis, the Knowlege of God, is the anti-thesis to the earthly existance. The "test" however is not whether or not the soul will seek "the Light", but how he will deal with his fellow man, while he is immersed in his various incarnations. >I observe then, when one feels "unsatisfied" with Christianity and >yearns to "expand the consciousness" before other altars and >through other gospels, howe ver Christian they may appear, one >has already commenced on the downward slide to perdition. In his >heart he or she has sinned already: I observe that many people run to religion like children run to their mommy for forgivness. In many cases it has nothing to do with a search for religious truth, but a need to be protected from the big bad world. or satan who incidently is a name taken from the planet Saturn, which in Hebrew is Sator. (The Key of Solomon) as a subscriber to alt.freemasonry, i have noticed that we have many posters who wish to free us from the lies of the world and teach us about the truth of the word of god. it is unfortunate that many of those who would lead us to him, have only an emotional understanding of he is, was or where he came from. i am interested in what you feel in regard to the points i have brought up. please feel free to write/witness/enlighten me. Date: 12-22-96 (14:23) Number: 59 of 65 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: thogan1@uic.edu, TED HOGAN Subj: My girlfriend and Masonry Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago Message-ID: <32BD98C6.7959@uic.edu> Reply-To: thogan1@uic.edu Bretheren, I feel that I should post this in response to the several unfortunate experiences that a few of our fellow Mason's wives have had with our fraternity. I am a white Mason in Chicago and my girlfriend is black. Recently I attended the Knights Templar Christmas libation in Chicago and was accompanied by my girlfriend. I was raised only last month and have not had the opportunity to bring my girlfriend along to a Masonic social gathering. Upon entering the building I really was not sure how people would react. We were greeted with open arms and made to feel at home right away. Even the older brothers made no obvious notice of the fact that we were an interracial couple. I understand that we all have lived in different time periods and expected at least some questioning looks, but found none. We had a wonderful time and I offer this as testiment to the principles of this great fraternity. Chicago is a very segregated city and I am proud to be among a group of upright men and women who can look past that. I have never seen any brother mistreat nor act in a condesending way to a woman. In any organisation there will be exceptions, but I have seen less within the bounds of Freemasonry than anywhere else. Ted Hogan AF&AM #777 (Ravenswood) Chicago, Illinois Date: 12-23-96 (14:46) Number: 72 of 95 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Masonry and Christianity Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <59m60l$i24@news2.cais.com> "Kabbalah" means "received," not "tradition." The Kabbalah was supposed to contain knowledge _received_ by a few, rather than revealed by many. Its purpose was supposedly to explain further the Word of God to those few who were capable of understanding more than the basic knowledge of the Bible. Since it depends extensively on Jewish learning and interpretation, it is no wonder that most Christians have no comprehension of the Kabbalah and dismiss it as occultism. A better term for it would be "mysticism," of which Christianity has its own traditions. IMHO, the Kabbalah is of academic interest only. It draws much from pagan influences that infiltrated Judaism during the Babylonian captivity and is not, nor ever has been, in the mainstream of Jewish religious philosophy. There are some Masons who think that the Kabbalah is the underlying structure of Freemasonry; there are some Masons who claim that Adam, Noah, and Moses were Freemasons. One is free to think what one likes in a society of freethinkers, such as Freemasonry. To those who think that Albert Pike based his works on the Kabbalah, I would only point out that Pike was a prodigious scholar who had doubtless already read the works of Aquinas and Augustine and incorporated much of them as well. But I guess there's no scandal in finding that parts of Masonry were based on Christian philosophy... As for the Kabbalah being "traditions that destroy the word of God," well, all I have to say to that is "balderdash." It shows a complete ignorance of anything actually contained in the Kabbalah. Someone who would write that has never opened a copy of the Kabbalistic books, which are readily available in public libraries; he has formed his opinions only from what someone else wrote about the Kabbalah. (For that matter, there is more Kabbalistic material in Christianity than there is in mainstream Judaism: The belief in angels and devils is not found in Judaic thought as a significant element, but is widespread in Christianity, and this belief is purely Kabbalistic. Christianity is a far more syncretistic religion than most Christians are aware. I'd suggest that our writer learn a bit more regarding his own belief system before deciding to set someone else's house in order.) Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 12-23-96 (23:23) Number: 84 of 95 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: pedrotti@slip.net, PETER PEDROTTI Subj: Re: Greeks knew world is round --- and measured it! Was: Re: Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Slip.Net Message-ID: <32c424d8.16532768@news.slip.net> On Sun, 22 Dec 1996 02:58:16 UNDEFINED, af@atl-intl.com wrote: >For whatever it is worth, the Greeks not only knew the world to be round, >a pretty good estimate of its size was made by geometry; the method was >to use the different angles of noon shadows measured in two latitudes and >to calculate from that. > >A great deal of knowledge was lost with the burning of the library of >Alexandria; in fact, the European Dark Ages had more primitive technology >than had been possessed by the pre-Christian Romans and Greeks. > > Regards and well wishes, > David > >>Weren't the globes originally bowls of some kind, used to hold oil? I >>don't recall where I read that but it stuck in my mind when considering >>just the point raised in this thread, i.e. globes during a period when >>the world was considered flat. > >>: > building of King Soloman's Temple, if it was widely beleived and >>: > accepted as fact that the world was round? > >>: Do you mean that the world was flat? If so, it's a very good question. >>: I will also be interested in the answers. > On Sun, 22 Dec 1996 02:58:16 UNDEFINED, af@atl-intl.com wrote: >For whatever it is worth, the Greeks not only knew the world to be round, >a pretty good estimate of its size was made by geometry; the method was >to use the different angles of noon shadows measured in two latitudes and >to calculate from that. > >A great deal of knowledge was lost with the burning of the library of >Alexandria; in fact, the European Dark Ages had more primitive technology >than had been possessed by the pre-Christian Romans and Greeks. > > Regards and well wishes, > David David, There were, as I understand it (from Astronomy 1 at UC Berkeley once upon a time), two separate lines of thought in ancient Greece on this subject. They, like everyone else in the ancient world, thought Earth to be flat and that the Sun and Moon revolved around the Earth. Even so, being consummate geometers and observational astronomers, they did correctly figure that the Sun, Earth and Moon were lined up during lunar eclipses. It was speculated that the earth is a round flat disc based on the (correct) guess that the darkening of the moon during a eclipse, which has a circular edge, was the Earth's shadow. Nobody seems to have guessed, however, that the Earth is a sphere, just that the perimeter of the flat Earth is circular. The second, and remarkable piece of astronomy was the simultaneous observation of the elevation of the moon from different latitudes, as you describe. Assuming a flat Earth, the experiment was thought to give the distance to the Moon by "triangulation". Since the Greeks assumed the Moon is fairly close, they didn't realize that within their experimental error, the distance should have been treated as effectively infinite and that the two lines of sight should thus have been considered parallel. There is enough of the Earth's curvature between Greece and Egypt that the elevation difference gave them an excellent estimate of the radius of the Earth, but they did not recognize their result for what it was at the time. If the idea that the Earth is a sphere ever occured to them, they probably discounted it because foreigners would have fallen off. It is more probable that the "pommel, or ball representing a globe" atop the Masonic Boaz is simply a modern anachronism like the clocks that chime in several of Shakespeare's plays (hmm... more evidence that he wrote the ritual?). The pommel on Jachin, however, is the Celestial Sphere or "situation of the fixed stars", which did figure in several ancient astronomical theories and is a useful approximation today. Neither is mentioned in the biblical accounts of Hiram's (Hurums's) pillars (Kings I, 7:13-22, Chronicles II, 2:13-14, Chronicles II, 3:15-17). F&S, Peter Pedrotti, PM Oakland, CA USA Date: 12-24-96 (00:51) Number: 94 of 95 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: pedrotti@slip.net, PETER PEDROTTI Subj: Re: Greeks knew world is round --- and measured it! Was: Re: Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Slip.Net Message-ID: <32c22105.8546281@news.slip.net> On Mon, 23 Dec 1996 23:23:32 GMT, pedrotti@slip.net (Peter Pedrotti) wrote: >On Sun, 22 Dec 1996 02:58:16 UNDEFINED, af@atl-intl.com wrote: > >>For whatever it is worth, the Greeks not only knew the world to be round, >>a pretty good estimate of its size was made by geometry; the method was >>to use the different angles of noon shadows measured in two latitudes and >>to calculate from that. >> >>A great deal of knowledge was lost with the burning of the library of >>Alexandria; in fact, the European Dark Ages had more primitive technology >>than had been possessed by the pre-Christian Romans and Greeks. >> >> Regards and well wishes, >> David > >David, > >There were, as I understand it (from Astronomy 1 at UC Berkeley once >upon a time), two separate lines of thought in ancient Greece on this >subject. They, like everyone else in the ancient world, thought Earth >to be flat and that the Sun and Moon revolved around the Earth. Even >so, being consummate geometers and observational astronomers, they did >correctly figure that the Sun, Earth and Moon were lined up during >lunar eclipses. It was speculated that the earth is a round flat disc >based on the (correct) guess that the darkening of the moon during a >eclipse, which has a circular edge, was the Earth's shadow. Nobody >seems to have guessed, however, that the Earth is a sphere, just that >the perimeter of the flat Earth is circular. > >The second, and remarkable piece of astronomy was the simultaneous >observation of the elevation of the moon from different latitudes, as >you describe. Assuming a flat Earth, the experiment was thought to >give the distance to the Moon by "triangulation". Since the Greeks >assumed the Moon is fairly close, they didn't realize that within >their experimental error, the distance should have been treated as >effectively infinite and that the two lines of sight should thus have >been considered parallel. There is enough of the Earth's curvature >between Greece and Egypt that the elevation difference gave them an >excellent estimate of the radius of the Earth, but they did not >recognize their result for what it was at the time. If the idea that >the Earth is a sphere ever occured to them, they probably discounted >it because foreigners would have fallen off. > >It is more probable that the "pommel, or ball representing a globe" >atop the Masonic Boaz is simply a modern anachronism like the clocks >that chime in several of Shakespeare's plays (hmm... more evidence >that he wrote the ritual?). The pommel on Jachin, however, is the >Celestial Sphere or "situation of the fixed stars", which did figure >in several ancient astronomical theories and is a useful approximation >today. Neither is mentioned in the biblical accounts of Hiram's >(Hurums's) pillars (Kings I, 7:13-22, Chronicles II, 2:13-14, >Chronicles II, 3:15-17). > >F&S, > >Peter Pedrotti, PM >Oakland, CA USA P.S., More of the story gradually comes back to me. The Greeks measured the distance to the Sun using the shadows of vertical rods and the elevation of the Moon using a sort of inverted sextant that measured the angle away from a vertical plumbline, the complement of the elevation above the horizon. To their surprise, the two measurements agreed fairly well and they concluded that the Sun and Moon were the same distance from the Earth, that distance being fairly close to the actual radius of the Earth, and for the same reason. This result made emminent sense to them, because the Sun and Moon happen to both be about 109 times as distant as their own diameters, causing them to appear the same size ("subtend the same angles"). They fit almost exactly during solar eclipses, sometimes the Moon appears slightly larger, sometimes slightly smaller than the apparent Sun, depending on where in Earth's orbit the eclipse occurs. Peter Date: 12-23-96 (21:35) Number: 97 of 126 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: acacia@rmc1.crocker.com, ACACIA PRESS, INC Subj: Re: JFK on secret societies (response) Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry,alt.conspiracy,alt.conspiracy.jfk Organization: Crocker Communciations (crocker.com) Message-ID: Acacia Press wrote: >Why is this relevent to JFK thoerists? The leadership of the Kennedy >assassination investigation/cover-up (Lyndon Johnson, J. Edgar Hoover, >Earl Warren) were all Masons. drn@zippo.UUCP in igc:alt.conspi.jfk wrote: >All of the people you named were white, American, government servants. >Were all white, American, government servants involved in the JFK >assassination? Your ideas are extreme and marked with prejudice. > >Richard The level of hostility that Freemasons felt toward Kennedy was documented in February 1960 issue of New Age magazine, a Masonic publication, where Luther A. Smith, Sovereign Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction, told his readers: "whatever bigotry is in evidence in the United States is exhibited solely by the Roman Catholic hierarchy; that the Canon Law of the Roman Church and the directives of the Pope validate the fears of the people that the dual allegiance of American Catholics is a present danger to our free institutions, and lastly that the people in passing upon the qualifications of a Catholic candidate for the Presidency will be guided by their knowledge of history and their great store of plain old-fashioned common horse sense, and their innate caution not to gamble when their LIBERTIES AND THE NATIONAL SECURITY ARE AT STAKE (emphasis added). Among American citizens there should be no question or suspicion of allegiance to any foreign power, but in the case of the Roman Catholic citizen, his church is the guardian of his conscience and asserts that he must obey its laws and decrees even if they are in conflict with the Constitution and laws of the United States." As the quote above shows it was the Masons who were 'extreme and marked with prejudice' and they continue to be as extreme in their views and actions today. Kennedy's assassination was coup d'etat by a bunch of self-serving 'white, American' sleazeballs who are a cancer on America's greatness. Acacia Press, Incorporated http://www.crocker.com/~acacia/index.html PO BOX 154, Montague, MA 01351 Date: 12-23-96 (17:59) Number: 98 of 126 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: administrator@rbp.eeomas.com, OSIRIS2 Subj: Re: Greeks knew world is round --- and measured it! Was: Re: Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: PSI Public Usenet Link Message-ID: <32BF0ED9.5810@rbp.eeomas.com> af@atl-intl.com wrote: > > For whatever it is worth, the Greeks not only knew the world to be round, > a pretty good estimate of its size was made by geometry; the method was > to use the different angles of noon shadows measured in two latitudes and > to calculate from that. > > A great deal of knowledge was lost with the burning of the library of > Alexandria; in fact, the European Dark Ages had more primitive technology > than had been possessed by the pre-Christian Romans and Greeks. > > Regards and well wishes, > David > > >Weren't the globes originally bowls of some kind, used to hold oil? I > >don't recall where I read that but it stuck in my mind when considering > >just the point raised in this thread, i.e. globes during a period when > >the world was considered flat. > > >: > building of King Soloman's Temple, if it was widely beleived and > >: > accepted as fact that the world was round? > > >: Do you mean that the world was flat? If so, it's a very good question. > >: I will also be interested in the answers. Also, the Kemetians (Egyptians) knew that the world was round. It was not until the Dark Ages of Europe that the thought of Earth being flat was popular. Egyptians built the pyrimads with the indepth knowledge of the mathematical function PIE, and found the relationship between PIE and the angles and sides of the pyrimad. Osiris Date: 12-23-96 (18:13) Number: 105 of 126 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: administrator@rbp.eeomas.com, OSIRIS2 Subj: Re: Greeks knew world is round --- and measured it! Was: Re: Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: PSI Public Usenet Link Message-ID: <32BF1232.7D98@rbp.eeomas.com> af@atl-intl.com wrote: > > For whatever it is worth, the Greeks not only knew the world to be round, > a pretty good estimate of its size was made by geometry; the method was > to use the different angles of noon shadows measured in two latitudes and > to calculate from that. > > A great deal of knowledge was lost with the burning of the library of > Alexandria; in fact, the European Dark Ages had more primitive technology > than had been possessed by the pre-Christian Romans and Greeks. > > Regards and well wishes, > David > > >Weren't the globes originally bowls of some kind, used to hold oil? I > >don't recall where I read that but it stuck in my mind when considering > >just the point raised in this thread, i.e. globes during a period when > >the world was considered flat. > > >: > building of King Soloman's Temple, if it was widely beleived and > >: > accepted as fact that the world was round? > > >: Do you mean that the world was flat? If so, it's a very good question. > >: I will also be interested in the answers. Also, weren't the libraries of Alexandria already stocked well with books of knowledge from it's original owners? The Egyptians...which is where the Greeks took most of their knowledge from. The Greeks were naturally ecclectic. Osiris Date: 12-24-96 (21:34) Number: 109 of 126 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: tmorgen@worldnet.att.net, TMORGEN Subj: Re: a question Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Message-ID: <01bbf1e2$2a948520$961093cf@tmorgen> Gerry Sargent wrote in article <32C0A953.44F5@mail.zynet.co.uk>... > rudebs@mail.icon.co.za wrote: > > > > Im busy reading the book, The Hiram key. In the book they talk > > about the ritual of the third degree whererby the secrets of a MM > > was known to only three people. Yet when hiram was killed it is stated that > > the secrets where lost and substituted secrets where made. Why was this > > needed if at least two other people knew the secrets? > Dear Gerry, This statement must again be restated: Masonry IS a system of morality, vieled in allegory and illustrated by symbols........a very important statement. As a non mason, you can read every book every written about masonry; about masons and still not have a clue as to what all this means. As a mason, you can read every book ever written about masonry; about masons and still not have a clue as to what all this means. I said that twice for a reason.....masons, many of them spend their entire lives reading, discussing, thinking about the many things in masonry that are difficult to understand and after that lifetime come to the realization that the real mysteries of the craft may have yet elluded them. I find it totally amazing that, considering the obvious intelligence of some of the people who post there, particularly non masons that can read a few (many for that matter) books and come to any conclusion other than the true fact they should join the organization *if they truly wish to learn more about it. Only the uneducated or extreemly uninformed would think they know all there is to know about masonry. Most states (jurisdictions) have Lodges of Research. Nationally, we have the Philalethes, a fine organization that is not in existance to dictate or mandate the secrets of freemasonry....they are there to learn. Just as we all learn as we go through our lifetimes. Reading back through this thread, I am amazed at what has escaped the many posters who have answered this question. The actual answer is right in the 3rd degree, not in Royal Arch....which happens to be...sorry, another secret! Regards, Ted Morgenthaler, PM, Central City, Colorado Date: 12-24-96 (21:49) Number: 110 of 126 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: tmorgen@worldnet.att.net, TMORGEN Subj: Re: On Restivos Opinion Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Message-ID: <01bbf1e4$2f27de00$961093cf@tmorgen> nschlink@rex.re.uokhsc.edu wrote in article <32be1f30.4647713@news.uoknor.edu>... > sheesh, don't count me in with your opinion, mr. m. i would rather > have some earnest conversation than bickering or scolding. lighten > up, ok? > > nathan s. > okc #36, af&am > Ok nathan, I certainly will not count you in. However there are many people here who are not about to "lighten up" one bit until some people get it into their thick heads that newsgroups, all of them have certain rules. This one is not to be a forum for people who have a personal vendetta against masonry or a personal platform for their_specific_ religious problems_or_beliefs. There are over 10,000 newgroups now and there is anything you wish to find out there, which is the respectful thing to do rather than pick a subject and then expect the newsgroup to change direction just because someone comes in and believes that the NG should. Regards, Ted Morgenthaler, PM, Central City, Colorado Date: 12-24-96 (21:58) Number: 112 of 126 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: nschlink@rex.re.uokhsc.edu, NSCHLINK Subj: Re: Greeks knew world is round --- and measured it! Was: Re: Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA) Message-ID: <32c04d95.7615730@news.uoknor.edu> On 24 Dec 1996 16:56:10 GMT, rfire@cais.cais.com (Dr. Roger M. Firestone) wrote: >The Greeks derived very little knowledge from the Egyptians except >perhaps some astronomy/astrology. This Afro-centric stuff is a piece >of fiction, as any responsible scholar of ancient history can tell you. >Egyptians may have invented paper, but they did not record much on it >besides taxes/tithes and the like. > >Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH let's not be too hasty here, doc. although you have made good points on many subjects and continue to do so, please don't let it get the best of you! there are many problems with the educational dept.s all over the U.S., but that can be remedied to some extent here! and, although the Greek knowledge was not totally derived from egypt, egyptian knowledge was not quite as trivial as it sounds in your post. i may have gotten the wrong impression, and i would be delighted to get a follow up if i have. also, a note on the "afro-centrism" of today's education. north africa is different from south africa. we all know this. they are more like the middle easterners or semitic, while africa below the sahara is more tribal. this is not bad or demeaning in any way, but it is the truth. egyptians were not "black," but were more "brown" than anything else. they were/are more like the arabs than the nigerians, therefore the whole concept of claiming world civilization solely from the sub-saharian africa is ludicrous. in fact, there is a lot of evidence that the great civilizations had their roots in northern india with the Vedic civilization, which spread throughout. what i'm trying to say (and not doing so succinctly, i'm afraid) is that _we_ are not to judge our forefathers for their ignorance or customs. they did what they did because it was practical for the time. although some things seem barbaric, others seem ingenious. we can learn from all of these cultures, and bickering over who's was REALLY enlightened at what time is just silly. greeks, romans, egyptians, indians, indus-valley, sub-saharan, norse, and all other cultures were important and learned from each other. also, what is also important about the egyptian area is that during the rise of islam the knowledge that was forbidden during the religious oppression in europe was held by the islamic people. all that greek knowledge (as well as others) was being burned by the priests as heretical and pagan, while the muslims kept it, allowing it to be reborn like the phoenix during the renaissance. ok, i'll get off my soapbox now. go easy, bros! nathan s. okc #36 af&am p.s. merry christmas! Date: 12-25-96 (00:34) Number: 114 of 126 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais2.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Greeks knew world is round --- and measured it! Was: Re: Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <59psqn$5ap@news2.cais.com> So which Egyptians are you talking about? The First Dynasty? The Hyksos? Later dynasties? The problem was not mine, but a blunt statement earlier about the library at Alexandria being full of knowledge that the Greeks took from "the Egyptians" without crediting them. This assertion is part of a set of "Afro-centric" allegations, including the notion that the Egyptians (again, which ones?) were black Africans, or members of the Negroid race. These theses are part of an attempt to augment "black pride" by telling young African Americans that they had a great culture in Africa which was stolen and then obliterated by white Europeans. The difficulty with this sort of thing is two-fold. First, it is not the truth, and second, it is racist. It is not the truth because there is no evidence to support it and considerable evidence against it. It is racist because it makes allegations about deliberate crimes of one race against another and thereby stirs up racial hatred. Remarks that are false and bigoted do not belong in a Masonic newsgroup, and it is the fault of "Osiris" (whoever that is) for posting them. But I'd rather that you didn't defend them, even obliquely. Finally, the role of Islam in preserving important elements of civilization during the Dark Ages cannot be gainsaid, but those events took place more than a thousand years later than the times that were originally being discussed. And by then, the Egyptians were essentially Arabs, who are unquestionably members of the Caucasoid race. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 12-25-96 (02:29) Number: 121 of 126 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: pmj@netcom.ca, PETER MICHAEL JACK Subj: Re: Greeks knew world is round --- and measured it! Was: Re: Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Netcom Canada Message-ID: <59q3ip$g13@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> In <59ov8f$15n@news2.cais.com> rfire@cais.cais.com (Dr. Roger M. Firestone) writes: > >In article <32BF0ED9.5810@rbp.eeomas.com>, >Osiris2 wrote: >[snip] >>Also, the Kemetians (Egyptians) knew that the world was round. It was >>not until the Dark Ages of Europe that the thought of Earth being flat >>was popular. Egyptians built the pyrimads with the indepth knowledge of >>the mathematical function PIE, and found the relationship between PIE >>and the angles and sides of the pyrimad. > >The term is pi, it is a Greek letter, and it is a number, not a function. > Trivial point, PI is also a function. PI(ARC,RADIUS) . It takes two arguments, and determines the ratio of their measures. Its result is a constant. It is the locus of all such pairs of measures in the two dimensional domain that yields the same specific unique point in the range. A number is also a function, a special kind of function, trivial to be sure, but whenever you try to represent the number, you become aware of that fact. The Egyptians used this fact, that PI is a function ratio, to devise different definitions for length measures. For ARCs they used Arc Cubits, Arc Feet, and Arc Digits. For the Diameter, or Raduis, they used Diametric Cubits, Diametric Feet, and Diametric digits. They got around the problem of having to know the value of PI as represented in some symbolic form, by a practical solution, of multiple metrological units. The length of the rope used to measure an ARC cubit turns out to be approximately 18.2822 British Inches. And the length of the rod used to measure the Diametric Cubit is approx 18.1856 British Inches. The Standard Diameter was set at 64 Diametric Cubits in length, so that the the Cubit was considered to be 1/64 th of a Standard Diameter. The Standard Circumference was set at 200 Arc Cubits. From these realities, the Egyptians were opperating with a measure of PI equal to PI = (18.2822 x 200) / (19.1856 x 64 ) = 3.145996 compared to pi = 3.1459265 a defference from our modern value in about 7 x 10-6 >Pi is a transcendental number, whereas the angles and sides of a >pyramid are only algebraic numbers, not transcendentals. Nice try, transcendental numbers are not representable exactly except by functions, and no actual measures can be used in building anything. For that matter, even irrational numbers like the square root of 2, (or the hypothenuse of a right angled triangle triangle with 1,1,Rt(2) sides), cannot be measured and used in building anyting. All non-whole numbers are approximated by ratios of appropriate whole numbers, a fact the Egyptians knew quite well. >There is no >relationship between pi and the structure of a pyramid. No. There isn't. That's why it is remarkable that the Great Pyramid of Egypt has a special relationship to PI. >Further, the >Egyptian pyramids were not even regular solids (i.e., their faces were >not all identical; the base was a square, while the sides were >triangles). > So, what of it? The Pyramid is a play on 5 and 8. >The value of pi arises in connection with circles and spheres, not in >the context of figures with flat sides. All the more reason to indicate the Egyptians knew of the pi ratio, since they used it in building the pyramid. >It is most simply the ratio >between the circumference of a circle and its diameter. > And a lot of other things besides this. >The Egyptians, so far as we know, approximated pi by the value of 3, >which is about 5% off. I wonder wher you got that idea? >The first good approximation of pi was by the >Greek Archimedes, who approximated a circle with polygons of 48 sides >and determined a value for pi of 3.142 or so. Good enough for the >engineering of the times. Correct to 30 places, pi is > > 3.141592653589793238462643383279 > >Bzzt! Thank you for playing; collect your lovely consolation gift on >your way out. > Bzzt! Thank you too for playing. >(Don't they teach this stuff in elementary school any more? Or do we >have people on the Net who think they understand Egyptology but >droppedout after 2nd grade? I knew what pi was before I was ten.) > No one understands Egyptology. We all read books, written by questionable authors. And either choose to believe what we read or disgard the text. >"The efforts of many scholars have shed considerable darkness on this >subject, and if their work continues, we shall soon know nothing at >all." --Mark Twain > >Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH > (and yes, my PhD is in math) A useless degree, you should have tried Physics. A Physics B.A is superior. Date: 12-25-96 (02:47) Number: 122 of 126 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: Emil Evans, EMIL EVANS Subj: Stop freemasonry dictatorship over western societies Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Message-ID: <59q4jp$jfi@duke.telepac.pt> Freemasonry is an evil secret society founded and followed by those who hate western civilization (mainly jews and all kind of heretics including socialists). His goal is very clear:replace the christian basis of our society by a world without GOD and here the evil will be king. As examples,we must tell that french revolution,the agression against Church during all nineteenth century,the I and II world wars and also the inspiration of communist revolution in Russia were of masonic ori- gin. Today masonry almost triumphed in all western countries(dominates secre- tly the political life of countries like USA or France). It is a duty of all who believes in the virtues of a traditional chris- tian society fight that monster,denouncing all the masons that, perverting democracy,try to impose their dictatorship. Because today there no more democracy but a real masonic complot dominiation. Parliaments(like the american congress or the european parliament). Date: 12-25-96 (04:26) Number: 123 of 126 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: The Real Secret of the FIVE Berries Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry,alt.illuminati Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <59qact$12s@news2.cais.com> >Why do masons keep talking of conspiracy? Why is it >so much on their minds? There is no conspiracy. I have >repeatedly stated that is my view. Things are the way they >are. That's that. No one is trying to conspire against >masons, and masons are not conspiring against anyone. [snip] >Or, has the universe conspired against >masons because it has decieved them with another show >of cable tows and silver cords to make them believe they >have some kind of special knowledge? If you can't recognize a parody when you read it and can ignore the closing line "Satirically yours," and then go on to post nonsense about "cable tows and silver cords," you have got to be dumber than a stump. And if you think it is Masons who talk of a conspiracy, rather than the anti-Masons who bring this up over and over again, then the stump really has you beat by a country mile. Masons don't write of an anti-Masonic conspiracy because a conspiracy must by definition have an illegal object. Spreading lies isn't illegal, just immoral. Anti-Masonry isn't a conspiracy, it's a delusion. And if you can find in my writings anywhere that I claim Masons possess "special knowledge," I'd appreciate the reference so that I can correct it; in that case it would appear that I had written something other than what I meant. The difference between Masons--the ones who are Masons for real and not just guys with dues cards--and the profane--the real profane, not the ones who are Masons in their hearts but have never petitioned a Lodge--is not in what we know, but in what we believe in and in what we do. Masons don't have any mystical secrets of the Kabbalah that give them power and wealth; if they did, this would be a different world already. Instead, we have the open secret that it is better to do good than evil, better to take action than to be uninvolved, better to stand for the truth than allow a lie to pass. Maybe this is "special knowledge" because so few believe it in these times, but it is knowledge that has been available to all since the Mosaic Law was committed to parchment millenia ago. Try reading what is written, rather than what you'd like to see; maybe you'd make more sense... Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 12-25-96 (04:56) Number: 127 of 148 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Greeks knew world is round --- and measured it! Was: Re: An Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <59qc6a$et@news2.cais.com> Please don't lecture me on what a function is. A number is not a function. A function, properly defined, is a subset of the Cartesian product of two sets satisfying the axiom that if F is a function and (x,y) and (x,z) are elements of F, then y = z. Your "definition" of number as a function is not mathematical, for it confuses the concept of a member of a set with a function whose range is that set. There _is_ a function definable on any set of pairs of numbers whose constant value is pi, but that is not the same as what you describe. >Nice try, transcendental numbers are not representable exactly except >by functions, and no actual measures can be used in building anything. >For that matter, even irrational numbers like the square root of 2, >(or the hypothenuse of a right angled triangle triangle with 1,1,Rt(2) >sides), cannot be measured and used in building anyting. All non-whole >numbers are approximated by ratios of appropriate whole numbers, >a fact the Egyptians knew quite well. Basically a collection of non-mathematical nonsense, confused with the concept of "building," which has nothing to do with the mathematics of numbers. Incidentally, the Egyptians did not really understand fractions; they only were able to represent numbers as the sum of fractions whose numerators were all 1, with the exception of 2/3. (From Newman's World of Mathematics.) All irrational numbers may be represented one of two ways--as a least upper bound (or greatest lower bound or Dedekind cut), or as a limit of a Cauchy sequence. The former represents the real numbers as the order completion of the rational numbers, while the latter represents the real numbers as the topological completion of the rational numbers in the metric topology. Neither of these is a "function" representation. It is a standard topic in roughly junior-level math to show that these two representations are equivalent. The difference between transcendental numbers and algebraic numbers (of which pi and the square root of two are respective examples) is that the latter are solutions of polynomial equations, while the former are not. It is a standard proof (by Cantor) for advanced calculus that the infinity of transcendental numbers is larger than that of algebraic numbers. (Although up until a proof by Liouville in the last century, no one knew of even one transcendental number, although pi and e were suspected of being such. The Cantor proof came later.) In terms of measuring and building anything, we have left the realm of mathematics and are concerned with engineering, in which measurements may be accurate to some fraction of a micron if necessary (although not in bridge or skyscraper erection) but in which numbers as pure mathematicians regard them are not relevant. No engineer needs the square root of two measured to more than six or eight decimal places, nor pi to any greater accuracy, in order to build a building that will stay up. (Well, maybe more these days, now that computers are being used to relax tolerances by computing very complex finite element solutions and rather large stress tensors.) But engineers don't worry about transcendental numbers; that's a topic for a different field. >A useless degree, you should have tried Physics. A Physics >B.A is superior. Well, since I also completed a dual major in physics, your "clever" remark seems to have no point. But I have made a great deal of _use_ of my knowledge of mathematics in my career, and it seems quite relevant to Freemasonry, since Fellowcraft Masons are instructed to perfect their knowledge of mathematics. I do notice that physicists are quite dependent on mathematics for their theoretical progress; Einstein could not have developed much of his work without the advances by Poincare' and many others that closely preceded him and gave him the tools of tensor algebra to address the co-ordinate changes and concepts of manifolds required in general relativity, while quantum mechanics is similarly dependent on functional analysis and the theory of self-adjoint operators in Hilbert space for its development beyond the qualitative characterization of electron orbits of the hydrogen atom. Do you also tell physicians how to practice medicine? >No one understands Egyptology. We all read books, written by >questionable authors. And either choose to believe what we >read or disgard the text. Well, as I have pointed out elsewhere, there are respected departments of Egyptology in the academic community, including one at my undergraduate institution that is world-famous among researchers in the field. You might as well claim that "no one understands geology." As far as there being books by "questionable authors," that is certainly true, but it does not follow that _all_ authors are "questionable." Our state of knowledge is not so impoverished as that. Philosophers have spent well over two thousand years refining the concept of epistemology so that we have a pretty good understanding of what is to be believed and why, and how we may come to arrive at knowledge we can believe is true. Your characterization of everyone "choos[ing] to believe...or dis[re]gard the text" is a recipe for total ignorance. One can choose to believe that the earth is flat and that the sun is Phaeton's chariot, but one would be a fool to do so. Dismissing a field of research that adheres to reproducible methodology and defined procedures for deciding what is true or not exposes one's own folly, not that of the researchers. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 12-23-96 (23:23) Number: 145 of 148 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: pedrotti@slip.net, PETER PEDROTTI Subj: Re: Greeks knew world is round --- and measured it! Was: Re: Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Slip.Net Message-ID: <32c2227f.15931724@news.slip.net> On Sun, 22 Dec 1996 02:58:16 UNDEFINED, af@atl-intl.com wrote: >For whatever it is worth, the Greeks not only knew the world to be round, >a pretty good estimate of its size was made by geometry; the method was >to use the different angles of noon shadows measured in two latitudes and >to calculate from that. > >A great deal of knowledge was lost with the burning of the library of >Alexandria; in fact, the European Dark Ages had more primitive technology >than had been possessed by the pre-Christian Romans and Greeks. > > Regards and well wishes, > David David, There were, as I understand it (from Astronomy 1 at UC Berkeley once upon a time), two separate lines of thought in ancient Greece on this subject. They, like everyone else in the ancient world, thought Earth to be flat and that the Sun and Moon revolved around the Earth. Even so, being consummate geometers and observational astronomers, they did correctly figure that the Sun, Earth and Moon were lined up during lunar eclipses. It was speculated that the earth is a round flat disc based on the (correct) guess that the darkening of the moon during a eclipse, which has a circular edge, was the Earth's shadow. Nobody seems to have guessed, however, that the Earth is a sphere, just that the perimeter of the flat Earth is circular. The second, and remarkable piece of astronomy was the simultaneous observation of the elevation of the moon from different latitudes, as you describe. Assuming a flat Earth, the experiment was thought to give the distance to the Moon by "triangulation". Since the Greeks assumed the Moon is fairly close, they didn't realize that within their experimental error, the distance should have been treated as effectively infinite and that the two lines of sight should thus have been considered parallel. There is enough of the Earth's curvature between Greece and Egypt that the elevation difference gave them an excellent estimate of the radius of the Earth, but they did not recognize their result for what it was at the time. If the idea that the Earth is a sphere ever occured to them, they probably discounted it because foreigners would have fallen off. It is more probable that the "pommel, or ball representing a globe" atop the Masonic Boaz is simply a modern anachronism like the clocks that chime in several of Shakespeare's plays (hmm... more evidence that he wrote the ritual?). The pommel on Jachin, however, is the Celestial Sphere or "situation of the fixed stars", which did figure in several ancient astronomical theories and is a useful approximation today. Neither is mentioned in the biblical accounts of Hiram's (Hurums's) pillars (Kings I, 7:13-22, Chronicles II, 2:13-14, Chronicles II, 3:15-17). F&S, Peter Pedrotti, PM Oakland, CA USA Date: 12-23-96 (17:59) Number: 147 of 148 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: administrator@rbp.eeomas.com, OSIRIS2 Subj: Re: Greeks knew world is round --- and measured it! Was: Re: Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: PSI Public Usenet Link Message-ID: <32BF0ED9.5810@rbp.eeomas.com> af@atl-intl.com wrote: > > For whatever it is worth, the Greeks not only knew the world to be round, > a pretty good estimate of its size was made by geometry; the method was > to use the different angles of noon shadows measured in two latitudes and > to calculate from that. > > A great deal of knowledge was lost with the burning of the library of > Alexandria; in fact, the European Dark Ages had more primitive technology > than had been possessed by the pre-Christian Romans and Greeks. > > Regards and well wishes, > David > > >Weren't the globes originally bowls of some kind, used to hold oil? I > >don't recall where I read that but it stuck in my mind when considering > >just the point raised in this thread, i.e. globes during a period when > >the world was considered flat. > > >: > building of King Soloman's Temple, if it was widely beleived and > >: > accepted as fact that the world was round? > > >: Do you mean that the world was flat? If so, it's a very good question. > >: I will also be interested in the answers. Also, the Kemetians (Egyptians) knew that the world was round. It was not until the Dark Ages of Europe that the thought of Earth being flat was popular. Egyptians built the pyrimads with the indepth knowledge of the mathematical function PIE, and found the relationship between PIE and the angles and sides of the pyrimad. Osiris Date: 12-26-96 (15:29) Number: 157 of 166 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: tmorgen@worldnet.att.net, TMORGEN Subj: Re: An interesting Question? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Message-ID: <01bbf341$79f761e0$d41193cf@tmorgen> Jim Pauk wrote in article <32C29517.633A@www.plantnet.com>... > SMAITL41@MAINE.MAINE.EDU wrote: > > > > I am drawing a blank as to which Greek mathemetician was responsible, > > however during the Greek period the (almost) exact circumference of the > > world was calculated using geometry/triganomentry. > > Eratosthenes > Brother Jim, I answered him as "Arostenenes" I think we are saying the same thing, but I wouldn't put 2 cents on my spelling.....:) Wasn't he the one who paid someone to pace off the distance between Siene, and Alexandria, in order to get a radius? I wonder if I am getting that right? Regards, Ted Morgenthaler Date: 12-25-96 (11:11) Number: 171 of 186 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rharries@ihug.co.nz, RODNEY HARRIES Subj: Re: A.F.& A.M. OR F. & A.M. DIFFERENCE? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Brooklands Cattery Message-ID: In article <19961223061900.BAA07493@ladder01.news.aol.com>, rhmauk@aol.com (RHMAUK) wrote: > Please forgive me brothers, but I am in need of further light. > I was raise in Albert Pike Lodge 303 in Wicita, Kansas. My lodge is > AF&AM. > Many times in my travels I am asked if I'm four letter or three. Can > someone please explain the difference to me? In 1717 the first grand lodge was formed in England. In 1751 a rival grand lodge was formed by lodges which had not been involved in the formation of the original GL. The newer GL was nicknamed 'The Antients', the older, 'The Moderns' for polemical reasons. The older GL called itself by various names, as did the younger. In 1813 the rival GLs were united to form what is now officially called 'The Antient Fraternity of Free and Accepted Masons under the Grand Lodge of England'. Both the two former GLs had chartered lodges in other countries, in particular, in the American Colonies. American Colonial Provincial Grand Lodges declared themselves autonomous during and after the rebellion of 1776. Similarly autonomous Grand Lodges were formed in various countries throughout the world. These have usually adopted some of the adjectives used by the two English GLs. For example, here in New Zealand, the GL calls itself 'The Grand Lodge of Antient Free and Accepted Masons of New Zealand'. Some others chose not to put the somewhat antique word 'Antient' in their titles. Others chose completely different naming schemes. In short, whether a GL calls itself AFAM or FAM or something quite different (e.g. Grand Orient) is completely immaterial, and entirely a matter of aesthetics, or historic sense or something. What matters for inter-GL recognition is whether the ancient landmarks are observed. Rod Harries Greymouth Lodge 1233 (of the AFFAMUGLE) The Southern Cross Lodge 6 (of the GLAFAMNZ) ll Date: 12-27-96 (23:24) Number: 181 of 186 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: pedrotti@slip.net, PETER PEDROTTI Subj: Re: An interesting Question? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Slip.Net Message-ID: <32c55449.94895708@news.slip.net> On Fri, 27 Dec 1996 01:21:01 -0600, "Rob H." wrote: >Jim Pauk wrote: >> >> SMAITL41@MAINE.MAINE.EDU wrote: >> > >> > I am drawing a blank as to which Greek mathemetician was responsible, >> > however during the Greek period the (almost) exact circumference of the >> > world was calculated using geometry/triganomentry. >> >> Eratosthenes > >Is it not a truth that the Great Pyramid of Giza is an exact scale model >of the Northern hemisphere of the earth ? I think that our ancestors >must have known that the world was indeed not flat, but spherical. > >Good reading is a book called 5-5-2000; Ice, The Ultimate Disaster by >Richard Noone. It will explain much. Later !!! > > Rob H. > A.F.&A.M. #133 Bro. Rob, A very useful disposition for any proposition is to ask yourself if it makes any remote sense at all before proceeding to study it too closely. The Great Pyramid is a four-sided right pyramid with (counting its base) five flat sides. The Northern Hemisphere is exactly that, a half of a ball with one flat side and one curved side. If anyone draws imaginary lines and surfaces around one to force it to look like the other, that does not establish any meaningful connection whatsoever. You might as well notice that one can draw a circle connecting all six of the points of David's Shield to show that the ancient Jews had seen flying saucers. I doubt if there is anything but the febrile imaginations of modern data miners connecting the Pyramid and the Hemisphere. A pyramidal pile of bricks is intrinsically stable without stable mortar or special construction details. That is the most esoteric reason I can think of for the pyramidal shape of a funerary cairn fit for a primitive king who couldn't find sophisticated masons. He could, however, find a slew of primitive bearers of burdens who needed something to occupy their hands and minds during the dry months to keep them from brewing social unrest. My theory: The ancient Egyptians were actually the forebears of the Soviets. Keep 'em busy so they won't emigrate to Israel. They even invented the requisite bureaucratic papyruswork. F&S, Peter Pedrotti, PM Oakland, CA USA webmaster@odr.org THE ORDER OF KNIGHTS (Consider the source FWIW) Excerpted from THE MESSIANIC LEGACY By Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln Published by Henry Holt and Company, Inc Pages 353 - 361 The Sovereign and Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem dates, in its present form, from 1804, when it announced itself publicly and was officially acknowledged by various other institutions. It claims a much older pedigree, however. According to its own assertations, Jacques de Molay, last Grand Master of the Templars, left, on his execution in 1314, a charter designating his successor. Although officially dissolved by the Papacy, the Templars, acting on this charter, are said to have perpetuated themselves through the centuries. The authenticity of the charter remains a source of contention among historians, though there is a certain body of evidence in its favor. The issue has never been one of pressing importance because the Sovereign and Military Order has never made any explicit bid for power of any kind, never has actively endeavoured to wrest back the preogatives, privileges and holdings of the Knights it claims as its predecessors. Today, it is devoted largely to antiquarian research and charitable works. Its internal procedures are reminiscent, at times, of certain rites of Freemasonry, at times of other heraldic orders such as those of the Golden Fleece, The Holy Sepulchre and Saint Maurice. Its current Grand Master is the Portuguese Count Antonio de Fontes. In 1982, we had the first of several meetings with an official of the Sovereign and Military Order of the Temple. During the course of our conversations, he described to us the factional strife and schism which, during the last decade, had obtained within the institution he represented. One faction of the membership had broken away to form its own separate neo-Templar body in Switzerland. This faction had, in turn, spawned yet another 'renegade' faction, which, under the leadership of one Anton Zapelli, had adopted a new, higher profile and a more aggressively ambitious programme. The membership of Zapelli's organisation was said to include a number of people associated with the Swiss Grand Lodge Alpina, whose name had previously appeared on a number of Prieure de Sion documents. None of this would have been of any particular significance to us had it not been for the fact that we had already encountered Zapelli's name in another context. In 1979, when we were first attempting to establish contact with the Prieure de Sion and with M. Plantard, an informant in Paris had cited Zapelli. He was said, on that occasion, to be the real power behind the Prieure de Sion -- although this assertation may well have resulted from simple confusion, Zapelli's Templar organisation being based in Sion and bearing the name of Grand Prieure de Suisse. Struck by the reappearance of Zapelli's name in connection with the Sovereign and Military Order of the Temple, we asked whether he was indeed associated with the Prieure. The representative of the Sovereign and Military Order did not know. He was aware, he said, of the Prieure de Sion. Within his own organisation, the Prieure was known to have been active in the French Resistance during the war. But he had no idea whether Zapelli was in any way affiliated with it. In fact, he declared, he would be very grateful if we could find out and let him know. He seemed to fear that the Prieure, working through Zapelli, might perhaps be attempting to hijack his own Order. When we asked M. Plantard whether he knew Zapelli, he only smirked cryptically and said, "I know everybody." Subsequently, however, we were given a document produced for circulation within Zapelli's organisation. Two themes emerged as of paramount concern. One was banking and international finance. By 1982, Zapelli's organisation had apparently established its own bank or 'mutual society'. The other principal theme was a united Europe and 'the role of modern Templars in the unification of Europe.' The original Templars, Zapelli's document argued, had sought to create a united Europe. Their latter-day successors were now urged to emerge from the shadows, embrace something more important than purely antiquarian interests, involve themselves in politics, work for European unity and promote 'the European idea'. The structure Zapelli advocated was roughly similar to that of the Swiss Confederation. Europe was defined as stretching from the Atlantic and Mediterranean to the Urals. We found no reliable evidence linking Zapelli to the Prieure de Sion. Neither have we found evidence linking Zapelli to Licio Gelli or other members of P2. Like them, however, he appears to be functioning in a kind of twilight region, where secret societies link with high finance and Pan-European politics, where national frontiers do not constitute an obstacle and where no established legal guidelines obtain. And the fact that the index to Licio Gelli's files betrays an interest, on the part of P2, in the Sovereign and Military Order of the Temple. The precise role, and the effective power, of the modern Templars remains uncertain. On the other hand, there is another organisation, closely associated with the Templars historically, whose role and power are much more thoroughly documented and tangible. This organisation is the original Templars' traditional rival, the Knights Hospitaller of Saint John--or, as their primary offshoot is known today, the Sovereign Military Order of Malta. The Order of Saint John originated with a hospital dedicated to Saint John in Jerusalem and established around 1070, some thirty years before the First Crusade, by Italian merchants to minister to pilgrims. It seems to have constituted itself officially as an order around 1100, just after the First Crusade, when it took its first Grand Master. The Hospitallers thus pre-dated the Templars, but they were not initially involved in military activity, only in hospital work. By 1126, however, some eight years after the Templars appeared publicly on the scene, the Knights of Saint John had begun to assume an increasingly military character, which was soon to eclipse, though not altogether supplant, their hospitaller services. In the years that followed, they came to comprise, along with the Templars and subsequently the Teutonic Knights, the major military and financial power in the Holy Land and one of the major such powers in all Christendom. Like the Templars, they became immensely wealthy. Their Order developed into a vast military, ecclesiastic and administrative edifice with hundreds of knights, a standing army, numerous ancillary services, a network of castles and fortresses and enormous holdings of land not only in Palestine, but across the Christian world. At the same time, the Order remained loyal to its hospitaller origins, maintaining well run and clean hospitals staffed by its own surgeons. In 1307, the Templars were charged with a catalogue of offences against the Catholic orthodoxy, and by 1314 they had been officially suppressed. Between 1309 and their secularisation in 1525, the Teutonic Knights were periodically subjected to similar charges -- though their primary theatre of operations, in Prussia and along the Baltic coast, placed them safely beyond the reach of any authority disposed to act against them. In contrast, the Knights Hospitaller of Saint John never incurred any such stigma. They continued to enjoy the favour of the Papacy. In England and, to a lesser extent elsewhere, former Templar holdings were turned over to them. After the fall of the Holy Land in 1291, the Knights of Saint John retired for a time to Cyprus. Then, in 1309, they proceeded to establish their seat and headquarters on the island of Rhodes, which they governed as their private principality. Here they remained for more than two centuries, withstanding two major sieges by the Turks. At last, in 1522, a third siege forced them to abandon the island, and in 1530 they re-established themselves in Malta. In 1565, Malta in turn was besieged by the Turks in one of the most ambitious such operations in military history. In an epic defence, 541 Knights Hospitaller and sergeants, aided by a garrison of some 9000 men-at-arms, repelled the repeated assaults of between 30,000 to 40,000 attackers. Six years later, in 1571, the Order's fleet, together with warships from Austria, Italy and Spain, won a decisive victory at the naval Battle of Lepanto, definitively shattering Turkish maritime power in the Mediterranean. The sieges of Rhodes and Malta and the Battle of Lepanto, were the high points of the Hospitaller's history, exceeding even their exploits in the Holy Land during the Crusades. In the mid sixteenth century, they were still one of the supreme military and naval powers of the Christian world, with strength and financial resources comparable to most kingdoms. Already, however, the seeds of decline had been planted. In Germany, Switzerland, Holland, Scotland and England, the Protestant Reformation had begun to fracture the unity of Catholic Europe; and the fissures erupting throughout Western Christendom were mirrored, in microcosm, within the Order of Saint John. English and German brethren of the Order proceeded to defect and create their own rival institutions. By the seventeenth century, the Knights still resident on Malta had been left behind by the tide of history, a staunch Catholic enclave still adhering to obsolete chivalric tenets while the rest of Europe moved on into a new age of mercantilism, industrialisation and middle-class hegemony. In 1798, however, the Knights were still on Malta, albeit reduced to the status of a quaint anachronism, impotent, led by an inept Grand Master and with their Catholic allegiances eroded by Freemasonry. Then Napoleon swept through the Mediterranean, en route to his disastrous campaign in Egypt. The Knights who had withstood the Turks two and a quarter centuries before were unable to offer resistance. They were summarily expelled by Napoleon who claimed Malta for France, only to lose it again to the British fleet under Horatio Nelson. For the Order of Saint John, a period of confusion ensued. At last, in 1834, the Knights were able to establish a new base for themselves in Rome. Despite the loss of their island home, they adopted the title of Order of Malta to differentiate themselves from the Protestant Orders of Saint John then being formed in Britain and Germany. They devoted themselves once again to hospital work which, during the century and a half that followed, earned them increasing prestige. In the immediate aftermath of the Second World War, before the creation of the state of Israel, there was actually some talk of entrusting the Knights of Malta with sovereignty over Jerusalem. In 1979, the Order numbered 9,562 full Knights, a thousand of whom were American and more than three thousand Italian. Today, from their headquarters at Palazzo Malta on the Via Condotti in Rome, the Knights of Malta maintain a world-wide hospitaller organisation. There is an emergency aid section to provide help in cases of natural disasters. There are hospitals and leper camps run by the Order in many countries. And, like their kindred Protestant Orders of Saint John in Britain, Germany, Holland and Sweden, the Knights of Malta have their own ambulance service. In Northern Ireland, ambulances of the English Order of Saint John and the Knights of Malta are on the streets simultaneously, ministering to the needs of their respective denominations and communities. In international law, the current status of the Knights of Malta is that of an independent sovereign principality. The Grand Master is recognised as a head of state, with a secular rank equivalent to a prince and an ecclesiastical rank equivalent to a cardinal. The Order maintains formal diplomatic relations with a number of countries, especially in Africa and in Latin America, and in those countries its ministers enjoy standard diplomatic privileges. The upper grades of the Order are still fastidiously aristocratic. The highest Knights must be able to display a coat of arms dating back at least three hundred years, in unbroken succession from father to son. The twentieth-century Order of Malta, is needless to say, ideally placed for intelligence work. Its network of membership is international and at the same time well organised. Its hospital and medical services often place it strategically at points of crisis--as in Northern Ireland. Its membership extends from medical staff and ambulance drivers to important figures in politics, business and finance who have access to spheres that ordinary priests would not. In consequence, the Knights of Malta became closely associated with the Vatican's own intelligence department. The Order seems not to have been hostile to such an association. On the contrary, it seems to have welcomed the opportunity to resume, on a clandestine level, the role it had first begun to perform during the twelfth century--that of spearheading a crusade. Today, the Order of Malta is believed to be one of the primary channels of communication between the Vatican and the CIA. There is ample evidence for such an assertion. In 1946, James Angleton -- former OSS and then CIA station chief in Rome, who filtered millions of dollars from his agency to the Italian Christian Democrats - received a decoration from the Order of Malta for counter-intelligence work. So, too, did Dr. Luigi Gedda, the head of the group called Catholic Action, who served as a liaison between the CIA, Joseph Retinger's European Movement and future Pope Paul VI. In 1948, the Knights awarded their highest decoration, the Grand Cross of Merit, to General Reinhard Gehlen, head of the West German secret service, which at that time was little more than a department of the CIA. Previously, Gehlen had been in charge of Hitler's intelligence services for Russia. As early as the late 1940's, then, the Order of Malta was becoming involved in the secret war against Communism beginning to escalate across Europe. The Order's work in intelligence would naturally have been facilitated by the number of highly placed American officials in its ranks. As the 'Cold War' gained momentum, the American contingent of the Order increased substantially. The most influential figure in this contingent was, again, Cardinal Francis Spellman of New York -- who had worked for the CIA in Guatemala and whose network of personal associates led directly to P2. Spellman became 'Protector and Spiritual Advisor' of the American Knights. He also became their effective de facto head. In this capacity, he raised immense sums of money, each of the many Knights created annually having to pay tens of thousands of dollars as an enrollment fee. It has been alleged that only a portion of this revenue ever found its way back to the Order in Rome, the bulk of it being deployed for other purposes. Spellman was also in league with a cardinal who, during the 1950's, made an attempt to hijack the Order and use it for his own political ends. It is not uncommon for CIA directors to be Knights of Malta. John McCone, for example was a Knight. The agency's current Director, William Casey, is also a Knight. Former Directory William Colby was reportedly offered a membership in the Order but is said to have declined with the words 'I'm a little lower key.' The Order's membership at present includes William Wilson (United States ambassador to the Vatican), Clair Booth Luce (former United States ambassador to Italy), George Rocca (former deputy chief of CIA counter-intelligence) and Alexander Haig. It would, of course, be erroneous and unfair to regard the Order of Malta as nothing more than 'a CIA front'. The Order remains an autonomous institution pursuing charitable and diplomatic work of its own, much of which is laudable. Nevertheless, there is a persuasive body of evidence attesting to its involvement in intelligence activity. Some of this activity need not necessarily even be the Order's official policy. Thus, for example, a cardinal, say, and a high-ranking intelligence officer, both of whom happen to be Knights, may come together at one or another of the Order's social functions. Each may introduce the other to an influential banker, or a prominent politician. In this way, a project may be implemented and co-ordinated at the highest level without official directives, written instructions or formal procedures that might ultimately demand accountability. There would be no telltale paperwork to be discovered afterwards -- paperwork which can often be compromising and is notoriously difficult to dispose of without trace. Like the Lodge in Freemasonry, the Order of Malta, by its very nature, conduces to such procedures. It functions, in effect, as an ideal conduit. And its freedom of maneoeuvre is facilitated by its diplomatic prestige, its relatively low profile, its international network and respect accorded its humanitarian endeavors. The current situation in Central America is regarded by a number of commentators as indicative of the way in which the Order of Malta can be utilised--indicative, indeed, of the way any such organisation can be suborned to the aims of one or another political ideology. The present head of the Order in the United States is a prominent businessman, J. Peter Grace. Prior to 1971, Grace was associated with Radio Liberty and Radio Free Europe, both of which had been established by Reinhard Gehlen and funded by the CIA. Today, Grace, whose aides include another Knight of Malta, former United States Treasury Secretary William Simon, runs a organisation called Americares, of which he is chairman. A primary objective of Americares is to raise money for aid to Central America. The agency in charge of distributing this aid is the Order of Malta, working through its field organisation in El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras. At the same time, Americares seems to share certain interests with the World Anti-Communist League (WACL), now directed by ex-Major General John Singlaub, who in 1978 was required to resign for defying the President. When the White House failed to win Congressional support for funding the Contras in Nicaragua, Ronald Reagan enlisted the support of WACL and others. Singlaub's organisation openly undertook to supply the Contras with money and material. American journalists have legitimately wondered how much of this money and material is in fact being provided by Peter Grace's Americares organisation and distributed through the Knights of Malta. If any of it is, there remains the question of whether Grace and Americares are simply exploiting the Knights of Malta, or whether the entire Order, as a matter of its own policy, is involved. Date: 12-28-96 (23:54) Number: 212 of 231 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: spidergc@richmond.infi.net, SPIDERGREG Subj: Re: One Day Masons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: InfiNet Message-ID: <32C623B4.79F9@richmond.infi.net> Reply-To: spidergc@richmond.infi.net Gnomen wrote: > > In a recent post to this group, the term > "one day mason" was used. What is a > one day mason? > > Quentin Rakestraw > Gnomen@aol.com In Virginia, our GrandMaster, as I understand it, has allowed one day coferrals in order to try to increase membership. I had the option of a one day conferral or regular initiation rites. I chose the old fashioned way because I believed that undergoing the entire ritual would mean more to me. I was glad I did. In my opinion, those who undergo the one day ritual are cheating themselves out of a bit of the mystery that is Free Masonry. That is not to say that those who chose the one day conferral are any less of a Mason. I just feel that the brotherhood may mean more to those who have undergone the "old fashioned" initiation, passing, and raising. The Obligations for the degrees, to me, for example, mean more when I am able to remember 'how it was' during the ritual. But one day conferrals are not unheard of. After I was raised, I was given a copy of a history of our Lodge (Richmond #10). Our lodge dates back to 1780 and it was very moving to read exerpts from the minutes of the meetings held during the War Between the States. It appeared that most of the men who were made Masons during that period were given all three degreees in one or two days "By Special Dispensation". The book also includes an example of how Masonry is a universal brotherhood. The first meeting held after the Union occupation of Richmond included the notation of several guests...Brothers from New York and Mass.! Gregory Curry Junior Deacon-Richmond #10 Date: 12-29-96 (13:50) Number: 215 of 231 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: fritzf@flash.net, FRITZ FROEHLICH Subj: Re: One Day Masons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Flashnet Communications, http://www.flash.net Message-ID: <32C6D9AB.1D5@flash.net> Reply-To: fritzf@flash.net Gnomen wrote: > > In a recent post to this group, the term > "one day mason" was used. What is a > one day mason? > > Quentin Rakestraw > Gnomen@aol.com A little over a year ago I was made a MM on an All the Way in One Day (ATWIOD) presented by the Grand Lodge of NM, AF&AM. There has been much debate in this last year over the validity of this practice. Many of the Lodges who sent candidates have only had a few become active members , of the almost 200 participants, maybe one in ten have remained active in the Blue Lodge. Most were on there way to the Shrine. In this jurisdiction there is one lodge that sent 30 candidates. This Lodge now has only a few who remain. Luckily in my lodge we lost only 1 of the 4 who were sent. This gentleman was suspended less than 4 months later for NPD. This loss of canidates has made many of the old members very bitter. As I have seen it there are a few problems as well as rewards with the ATWIOD method. A few of the problems are that if the Blue Lodge is unable to provide or willing to invest the time in guidance of the new members they will loose them. Many of these members are only on there way to the Shrine. The advantages are that members can join in the life of the lodge quickly. If the candidates do not have the time to go through the degrees in the normal manor due to jobs, school or life style, this provides them a way to the light. These new members need to be welcomed and given tasks that involve them in the lodge. This is not to say they need to be included in the line immediately, but if they are involved in the Lodge they will not continue their interest in the Lodge. Education of the members at this stage is important. They need to be given a mentor to meet and learn the degrees and required lessons. Though no man should come to the fraternity for mercenary reasons, they need to see the rewards in this fellowship early. From my own experience, I have a good mentor. He has helped me to find the knowledge that I did not learn first hand by going through the rituals. Honestly I regret not having gone through the degrees the normal way, but I will make up for this by helping in the degrees. A little over a year after my raising, I am now in charge of the first degree. I look forward to this. The education of the meanings has only begun. For me not going through the process normally has given me a perspective on how important it is. Fraternally, Chris Froehlich Junior Decon, Albuquerque Lodge #60 AF&AM, Grand Lodge of New Mexico Date: 12-29-96 (13:34) Number: 216 of 231 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: jgbennie@vcn.bc.ca, JIM BENNIE Subj: Re: One Day Masons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Vancouver CommunityNet Message-ID: <5a6o5m$mc6@opus.vcn.bc.ca> In <32C6D9AB.1D5@flash.net>, Fritz Froehlich wrote: > If the candidates do not have the time to go > through the degrees in the normal manor due to jobs, school or life > style, this provides them a way to the light. > These new members need to be welcomed and given tasks that involve them > in the lodge. Bro. Froehlich, I'm sorry, but if they "do not have the time.. due to jobs, school or lifestyle" for the degree process, why do you think they'll have time for "tasks that involve them in the Lodge"? If they don't have time to sit down with a "mentor" and learn memory work between degrees, why do you think they'd suddenly have all this free time to hang around a "mentor" if they're put through the degrees in a single day? There's no question some of these one-day Masons are excellent members and good Masons. But I wonder whether the one-day process contributed to this or whether they had "Masonry in the heart" and would be good Masons regardless of how long it took them to receive their degrees. I didn't have time to spare when I joined; I was working two jobs, seven days a week. I made the time because I was willing to make a sacrifice for "light". It seems some Grand Lodges are are so panicked about membership losses and Lodges so hard-up for officers, they're willing to hand Masonry to anyone, including some who don't want to make any effort to obtain it. If you're telling me most of the one-days you know of in your jurisdiction aren't active in their Lodges, then what benefit does whipping people through ceremonies serve the Craft? Jim Bennie WM, Lodge Southern Cross #44 Vancouver BC Date: 12-30-96 (01:28) Number: 223 of 231 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: pmj@netcom.ca, PETER MICHAEL JACK Subj: Law against Alchemy -Separation of Powers Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry,alt.illuminati Organization: Netcom Canada Message-ID: <5a75s4$lbg@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> LAW AGAINST ALCHEMY "..excited such a general belief in the art of transmuting metals, that an alarm was taken in the highest quarters, and an Act of Parliament was passed, 5 Henry IV.,1404, determining that 'the making of Gold and Silver shall be deemed felony.' 'This law,' says Watson, 'is said to have resulted from the fear at that time entertained by the Lords and Commons, lest the executive power, finding itself by these means enabled to increase the revenue of the Crown to any degree it pleased, should disdain to ask aid from the Legislature; and in consequence should degenerate into tyranny and arbitrary power." [ pg.97 Pythagorean Triangle, by Rev. G. Oliver ISBN 1-56459-372-X ] Freedom of information? Blah.... pmj Date: 12-27-96 (01:34) Number: 224 of 231 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais2.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: The Real Secret of the FIVE Berries Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry,alt.illuminati Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <59v92e$hn2@news2.cais.com> >There must be something special about a Grand Master. Otherwise, >why make the effort to become one? Some people enjoy power and prestige, some people enjoy the opportunity to serve, some people want to challenge themselves, some people pursue titles and honors. Why do some people want to become governor, mayor, or president? The only thing "special" about the Grand Master is that his is the absolute power of governance of the Craft in his jurisdiction during his term. If they had some kind of special occult knowledge, perhaps they would govern better, but they are all too human, as all Masons know. Some have been great leaders (A. Douglas Smith of Virginia comes to mind), some have been mediocrities (no names please), and some have been pernicious influences (again, no names). Just like leaders of corporations, of churches, of countries. >But, it would interest me to know whether the book _Masonic Initiation_ >by W.L. Wilmshurst, is a masonic book or an anti-masonic publication. >Published by Kessinger Pub. ISBN 1-56459-147-6 >I appreciate knowing that little detail. That's the source of my >special knowledge confusion. Wilmshurst wrote a lot about Masonry, but he only expressed his own opinions, and some of those were not widely accepted, such as his ideas about Masonry as a Christian institution. Wilmshurst was also British, and his writings are not especially reflective of Masonic practice in other countries. As Alexander Pope wrote, "a little learning is a dangerous thing..." Trying to understand Freemasonry from the outside, by reading books written for experienced and very knowledgeable Masons, is not going to accomplish much. There are some books written for outsiders (such as _A Pilgrim's Path_ by John Robinson) that would do you a lot more good. I would not only not recommend Wilmshurst to a profane (non-Mason) but neither would I use his works as instruction for any Mason not already familiar with more conventional studies in the Craft. You can't learn physics by starting with SU(3) theory of particle families; you start with basic mechanics (kinematics and statics and dynamics). You can't learn mathematices by starting with Banach spaces; you start with arithmetic and geometry. And you can't learn Masonry by starting with the most complex and advanced books, either. Start at the beginning, with Carl Claudy and the Robinson book already mentioned. Become familiar with what most Masons believe about the Craft before you explore the dusty corners of the halls of learning. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 12-27-96 (01:37) Number: 225 of 231 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais2.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Question? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <59v98r$km9@news2.cais.com> I'm starting to see a lot of the Y-word appearing here. Please be advised that this is potentially offensive to persons of the Jewish faith, who do NOT write the Tetragrammaton with vowels, nor pronounce it. Please visit http://www.cacr.caltech.edu/~rfire/masonry/jewish_faq.shtml (Jewish FAQ for Masonic Writers) for more information on this and other issues. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 12-28-96 (03:41) Number: 226 of 231 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais2.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Masonic Funerals Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <5a24tk$oeu@news2.cais.com> The Masonic observation for a fallen Brother does not even have the same name from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, let alone the same ritual. (In some places it is called the Memorial Service, in others the Funeral Service.) I have seen it in both DC and Virginia and it is vastly different in form and wording. And both differ from the one given in the Minnesota Masonic Manual. Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 12-28-96 (17:38) Number: 227 of 231 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rfire@cais3.cais.com, DR ROGER M FIRESTONE Subj: Re: Understanding Masonry: Hiram Abiff Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry,alt.conspiracy,alt.conspiracy.jfk Organization: Sent via CAIS Internet Message-ID: <5a3lto$bn5@news2.cais.com> In article , Acacia Press, Inc. wrote: >Freemasonry is a secret society with millions of American members. This >posting deals with some of the values and beliefs of the organization. The term "secret society" is commonly used; even Webster accepts it, but it does _not_ mean that the existence or activities of the organization are concealed. If you check the dictionary, you will learn that it refers to an organization with obligations to keep certain secrets. Freemasonry might better be termed a private organization, with certain elements of its operations not open to outsiders, any more than the details of any private club are exposed to non-members. Freemasons make their meeting places and times of meetings public--many Lodges have notice boards visible from the street, and in some states, it is customary to print meeting times in the newspaper. Masons wear distinctive jewelry identifying themselves as members. Unlike some "secret societies," Masons do not recruit members covertly (as opposed to the famous "tapping" ceremony of Skull and Bones at Yale). The term "secret society" as applied to Freemasonry is overwrought. >Freemasons pride themselves on preaching religous tolerance or as Rev. >Joseph I. Malloy, C.S.P. points out in his pamphlet 'May Catholics Be >Masons?', indifference. Masonic indifference to religious belief comes >from the fact that, while Freemasonry borrowed from many religions to >create its mythology, it is not principally concerned with religious >beliefs, except as a tool for another agenda. I'm afraid that the word "indifference" is never used in Masonry, only by anti-Masons. The term Masons use over and over again is toleration. The basic content of the teaching of the Lodge is, indeed, borrowed, but from only one source--the Jewish Scriptures (primarily the books of Kings and Chronicles). However, it is fales to say that Masonry uses religion "as a tool" for any purpose. Masons are charged to be religious and to support their religious institutions. The purpose of Masonry is to instil the principles of moral and ethical behavior. Religion also seeks to do this, but neither Masonry nor religion are "tools" of each other. The suggestion is pure fiction. >Masons are also supposed to avoid conflict over political issues amongst >the brotherhood. Espousing something akin to political indifferentism. >However, the actions of the brotherhood's membership are far from >politically neutral, as exemplified by the ultra-right-wing P2 lodge which >helped reinstall Peron in Argentina. It is also clear that Masonic values >are not compatible with true democratic governance. John F. Kennedy once >noted, "The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; >and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret >societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago >that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent >facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it." Again, >Masons don't really care what people call themselves politically, provided >they are willing to play a role in the larger Masonic agenda. The P2 Lodge was located in Italy, and had nothing to do with Argentina. Loggia Propaganda Due had its charter arrested and its members expelled for involvement in unMasonic political activity. Citing this as an example of Masonic principles is about as accurate as citing the church attendance of Mafiosi as proof that Catholicism is a criminal activity. It's dishonest and inaccurate (as evidenced by the allegation about P2 and Peron, which is completely false). John Kennedy had no problem with secrecy in the government, as evidenced by his use of the CIA for many covert operations. He had no problem keeping his affairs with women and his contacts with the Mob secret, either, or the seriousness of his health problems. Any statement by John F. Kennedy denouncing secrecy smacks of hypocrisy. >A British investigative work, Inside the Brotherhood by Martin Short >(copyright 1989), quotes a member of the fraternity who tell us: >"Freemasonry is a mechanism of social control. It's a feudal pyramid, >whereby people of influence in British society can mix with the ordinary >bloke and lend a little lustre to his dreary life." The notion that >Freemasonry is a control structure does fit the historical facts. Modern >Freemasonsry is a class based control structure which grew out of the >emerging 'business class' of the 1700s, rather than the traditional class >structure based on inherited royalty. Martin Short is no scholar, and his writings are shot through with inaccuracies and bias. Further, his description of Freemasonry in the UK seems to have little relevance to the much larger Masonic community in the US. >To understand Freemasonry it is important to focus on their core beliefs >and teachings. One finds at the heart of all Masonic teaching the legend >of Hiran Abiff, the man after whom all Masons are to model themselves. The >legend of Hiram Abiff was borrowed from the ancient legend of Osiris, as >Fred Husted described in his book, 'Freemasonry Exposed'. Here are the >basic elements of these legends, [snip] Who is Fred Husted, and what makes him an expert on Freemasonry? One can as easily draw parallels between the life of Jesus and the myth of Osiris. >While many Christian critics of Freemasonry are concerned about the pagen >nature of the legend, it is at least as important to understand the values >being taught. They are: > >1) Secrecy: Hiram was killed protecting his secret. >2) Collective retalliation: Hiram's 'fellow crafts' killed everyone who >attacked Hiram >3) Masonic rewards: Borrowing from Christian belief, Hiram was raised from >the grave by the brotherhood. 0. Masonry is not based on a "pagan legend," it is based on the Bible. 1. The principle taught is not to "protect a secret" but to be faithful to one's trust. Whether that trust is to keep confidences, give an honest day's work for one's pay, act responsibly with money for which one is a fiduciary, or fulfil the mission for which God placed us on earth, the principle is the same. Masonry teaches by symbolism; it is not wise to take symbols literally. 2. Again, Masonry teaches by symbolism. Should not evildoers be punished? Should not people be called to account for their actions? (As the writer of this scurrilous anti-Masonic bilge will someday be, if not necessarily on this earth?) Should the process of justice be dismissed as "collective retaliation" because it is done by society or authority? 3. The lesson of the Third Degree is that even the worthy do not necessarily receive their rewards in this life. No one is raised from the dead in any Masonic ritual. You just make this stuff up. >Add to this 'legend' a willingness to submit to 'Masonic' authority and >the purpose of a Masonic network is made clear. It is a organization that >works secretly and collectively to protect and advance the interests of >the bretherin, while offering rewards to those who provide service to the >'brotherhood'. The purpose of the "Masonic network" is to provide social opportunities for the members and to perform community service and provide charitable relief for those in need. The only rewards for those who provide service are a few titles and medals--and the esteem of their brethren. (A word you could learn to spell sometime, since you use it so much.) >Early Masonic exposes published versions of the Masonic oaths that made it >clear that Masons would work to protect each others interests in violation >of the law and without regard for the general public. Acts of murder and >treasons were explicitely cited for concealment in the oaths of high >ranking Masons. A Masonic expose is something written by a person who has broken a solemn oath before God and his fellows. Would you believe that such a person was telling you the truth? As far as "murder and treason" are concerned, no Mason is obliged to conceal such heinous acts, whether "high-ranking" (whatever that means--are you saying that only the Grand Officers have such an obligation? their charges are printed for all to read and say nothing of such) or not. >Freemasonry continues to be a powerful old-boy network and it is operating >successfully on a worldwide basis. It has found a comforatable home in >modern corporate structures, where Masonic favoritism and unethical >behavior can thrive. Actually, this may have been true forty or sixty years ago, but few corporate executives these days have much time free to involve themselves in fraternal organizations. Most Masons I know are Federal employees, small businessmen, retired military, retired other, blue collar workers, consultants, etc. Perhaps if more of "modern corporate structures" were filled by Masonry, companies would be run better and more humanely. Maybe there wouldn't be so many Brothers out of work if there were Masonic business owners to help them out. >It is worth noting that in the context of a hierarchical control >structure, Freemasonry does indeed want to eliminate internal religious >and political conflicts that might tear the brotherhood apart. But the >purpose is not spiritual or philisophical. It is an important component of >maintaining control over the brotherhood, the principal objective of the >Masonic leadership. Boy, I wish I'd had some of that "control over the brotherhood" when I was Master of my Lodge! I'd have had a lot more than eight people at meetings... >Some early Masonic critics had it right when they said the purpose of >Freemasonry is to, "dupe the simple for the benefit of the crafty". >Certainly the American public and many Freemasons have been conned by a >sleazy minority who are destroying the greatness of America. If you want to see who is "destroying the greatness of America," just visit your local college of education and find out what teachers are being told is the right way to instruct children. The US was founded largely by Freemasons--1/3 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Masons, 1/3 of the members of the 1787 Constitutional Convention were Freemasons, 1/3 of the Presidents of the US have been Freemasons, about 1/3 of the Congress and the Federal judiciary have been Freemasons for the entire history of the country. If America's greatness is being destroyed by Freemasonry, it must never have existed in the first place, since the country was founded on Masonic principles (religious toleration, democracy, patriotism) by Freemasons. Get a clue. >Acacia Press, Incorporated >http://www.crocker.com/~acacia/index.html >PO BOX 154, Montague, MA 01351 Just another Crock from crocker.com... Roger M. Firestone, 32 KCCH Date: 12-29-96 (19:36) Number: 228 of 231 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: ogytork@pacbell.net, TODD EVANS Subj: Re: One Day Masons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: A customer of Pacific Bell Internet Services Message-ID: <32C738BB.210C@pacbell.net> BaldGuy wrote: > I agree, in part, Mike. However, the main reason it will never be done > in Alabama is "I had to study my memory work, so why don't they?" or > "We've never done it that way before!" Some changes have to be made, or > membership will drop to zero when all of us _old_ Masons are gone. (I'm > not saying I like the one-day thing either, but we HAVE to do > something...) > > JohnI am a "new" mason and I still agree with you. I developed a wonderfull relationship with my coach and would durring my proficiancies and would not have had it any other way. IMHO the proficiancy is a rewarding experiance and should not be looked at as work. Todd Evans M.M. Date: 12-30-96 (08:09) Number: 232 of 241 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: loupecon@communique.net (Reply-To: no one), AKMA Subj: Re: Stop freemasonry dictatorship over western societies Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: UNK Message-ID: <32c772f2.25529404@news.communique.net> Reply-To: no one On Sun, 29 Dec 1996 04:13:43 GMT, dsale@users.southeast.net (Dan Sale) wrote: >representing earth, fire, air and sea. On the apron is found the >golden-seven branched candlestick - one stick represents Mars, or, >"Victory over rage and anger", or, >NEW WORLD ORDER. Thanks! But I'm not depressed anymore so I'll give ya a lesson in symbolism. A sysmbol's meaning is not set in stone anywhere. For example: The symbol familiar to us here in the west as a nazi emblem has a completely different meaning in asia. It is fully possible that the symbols you described could posibly convey the meaning you assign to them . You're apparent beief is my example for that. However, it need not mean the same thing to the masons going thru those degrees. ( you accuraccy or lack thereof on what goes on in those degrees can be answered by someone who belongs to the AASR as I do not) Just as the swastika does not mean the same thing to all people in the world, nor do other symbols convey the same meaning. The meaning of a symbol is either taught, or entirely of ones own personal belief. They cannot be given a universal unchanging meaning to suit someones argument as to their meaning. That would be an extremly broad and sweeping generalization. Not something that should be done to such a subjective thing as a symbol. If that is what those symbols mean to you, fine. But I assure you, the "NWO" is not what it means to any of the Scot Rite masons I know. ( yeah, yeah, I know.....no one you ever talk to or who answers you is either a "high" enough degree to know, is being lied to by his "superiors", or is himself lying. Pretty covienent for people to argue that way. Its called "Poisoning the well". Gennerally used as an attempt to re-direct attention away from a flawed argument. ) Akma Date: 12-30-96 (08:09) Number: 232 of 241 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: loupecon@communique.net (Reply-To: no one), AKMA Subj: Re: Stop freemasonry dictatorship over western societies Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: UNK Message-ID: <32c772f2.25529404@news.communique.net> Reply-To: no one On Sun, 29 Dec 1996 04:13:43 GMT, dsale@users.southeast.net (Dan Sale) wrote: >representing earth, fire, air and sea. On the apron is found the >golden-seven branched candlestick - one stick represents Mars, or, >"Victory over rage and anger", or, >NEW WORLD ORDER. Thanks! But I'm not depressed anymore so I'll give ya a lesson in symbolism. A sysmbol's meaning is not set in stone anywhere. For example: The symbol familiar to us here in the west as a nazi emblem has a completely different meaning in asia. It is fully possible that the symbols you described could posibly convey the meaning you assign to them . You're apparent beief is my example for that. However, it need not mean the same thing to the masons going thru those degrees. ( you accuraccy or lack thereof on what goes on in those degrees can be answered by someone who belongs to the AASR as I do not) Just as the swastika does not mean the same thing to all people in the world, nor do other symbols convey the same meaning. The meaning of a symbol is either taught, or entirely of ones own personal belief. They cannot be given a universal unchanging meaning to suit someones argument as to their meaning. That would be an extremly broad and sweeping generalization. Not something that should be done to such a subjective thing as a symbol. If that is what those symbols mean to you, fine. But I assure you, the "NWO" is not what it means to any of the Scot Rite masons I know. ( yeah, yeah, I know.....no one you ever talk to or who answers you is either a "high" enough degree to know, is being lied to by his "superiors", or is himself lying. Pretty covienent for people to argue that way. Its called "Poisoning the well". Gennerally used as an attempt to re-direct attention away from a flawed argument. ) Akma Date: 12-30-96 (01:15) Number: 233 of 241 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: Andrew-dennis@worldnet.att.net, ANDREW DENNIS Subj: In New York Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Message-ID: <32C75E00.5DAD@worldnet.att.net> I am a UGLE (English) mason newly arrived in NYC. Could anyone point me in the right direction for visiting craft lodges here? Date: 12-30-96 (06:17) Number: 234 of 241 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: legalrw@aol.com, LEGALRW Subj: Re: One Day Masons Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19961230061500.BAA02165@ladder01.news.aol.com> Here in Illinois during 1996, our GM allowed 4 Grand Master's Festivals. I can only speak for the result in my lodge. We raised, I believe, about 35 new Master Masons during the 4 festivals. Two of those candidates have now gone on to become officers of the lodge including myself. Several others are still active and coming to meetings. As an officer involved in our state's Pillar Program (another subject if you are interested) I am somewhat familiar with the membership lists. And I can say that there is probably more "one-day" mason's active in the lodge that brothers that were raised the "normal" way. All of the active members of our lodge are always working at improving our ritual, and I hate to say that the inactive members, whatever their passage to light was, all get rusty and forget. I think that a good mason is going to be a good mason. The way that they were raised doesn't seem to affect it that much. Bro. Scott Sim, Senior Steward Kelvyn Park - Willing Lodge #1075 Date: 12-30-96 (06:18) Number: 235 of 241 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: bromarkr@aol.com, BROMARKR Subj: Re: The G.A.O.T.U. Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <19961230061600.BAA02197@ladder01.news.aol.com> In article <32BE6E84.4D4@ozemail.com.au>, Matthew Holding writes: >Here it's Great not Grand, but it all means the same thing. >Can anyone clarify the connection with the Methodist Minister. Our >Lodge had Methodist connections from the start and I am looking at any >interesting Methodist links with FM. > >Thanks, >Yours fraternally >Matthew Holding >JW Epworth Lodge 159, South Australia > > Brother Holding, there was a recent post here by Brother Ron Eveson referencing a Presbyterian minister. I replied to and saved his message because it was of interest. It's still on the Deja News server (http://www.dejanews.com) you can see the context of the message there. Here's what was posted: < Date: 7 Dec 1996 21:15:27 GMT Recently there were some comments about the propriety of identifying God by the initials G.A.O.T.U. In reading The Grand Design by Wallace McLeod, I came across the following which I found to be most interesting; . . . this phrase entered Freemasonry by way of the first Book of Constitutions, printed in 1723. The compiler was Rev. Dr. James Anderson, a graduate of Aberdeen University, and minister of the Scottish Presbyterian church in Swallow Street, Piccadilly, London, from 1710 to 1734. He did not invent the phrase, but took it over from John Calvin, who uses it, for example, in his Commentary on Psalm 19; the heavens *were wonderfully founded by the Great Architect* again, according to the same paragraph, *when once we recognize God as the Architect of the Universe*, we are bound to marvel at his Wisdom, Strength, and Goodness. In fact, Calvin repeatedly calls God *the Architect of the Universe,* and refers to His works in nature as *Architecture of the Universe* ten times in the Institutes of the Christian Religion alone . . . fraternally Ron Eveson PM 691 G.R.C.>> Date: 12-31-96 (12:07) Number: 243 of 255 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: rogeri@netcom.com, ROGER INGERSOLL Subj: Re: Can I wear it? Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Message-ID: Organization: Freemasonry on the Internet Sean Clay (software@clayco.win.net) wrote: : Hi! : Just wondering what to do with 'the badge of a mason' that I was presented : with upon my raising. Since I am an officer, I can't wear it now, of course, : but I only see the brothers wearing the standard issue cloth ones at the : meetings. (Or their own PM ones in the fancy carrying cases!) : Is there a time when you could/should wear it?? When is the proper time to wear your Lambskin apron? Some will say that you should wear it at your Lodge meeting (with the exceptions of officers and PM's of course), others say only at your death. In my humble opinion, At Lodge meetings I wear the cloth apron furnished by the Lodge. But I do get my Lambskin out if I am attending a Masonic funeral, partially in respect for the departed and secondly, I think the paper disposable aprons used by many Lodges at funerals are in poor taste. Other times I think the Lambskin would be appropriate are at public ceremonies, especially those held outside the Lodge. Just my opinion... Roger Ingersoll Date: 01-01-97 (02:36) Number: 255 of 255 (Refer# NONE) To: ALL From: pmj@netcom.ca, PETER MICHAEL JACK Subj: Re: Beyond Prince Hall Recognition Read: (N/A) Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Conf: alt.freemasonry (12) Read Type: GENERAL (A) (+) Newsgroups: alt.freemasonry Organization: Netcom Canada Message-ID: <5acijb$rb2@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> In <5a8i6g$f9f@news2.cais.com> rfire@cais.cais.com (Dr. Roger M. Firestone) writes: > > >The only time one would have to go through the degrees a second time >would be in leaving a "clandestine" group for another that does not >recognize the first; that is called being "healed." It usually I wonder if you could be a little clearer on this _healing_ concept. Does one receive some kind of _wound_ through the initiation ceremonies that require this _healing_ ? pmj